Private pre prep or state reception

[Thinkingtoread]

I know I'm about to start a thread again which couple of you may have answered before but this is what is on my mind and honestly very derailed in my thoughts....hope knowing your perspective be helpful in deciding for my DS.

My DS joins school September 14....the school we applied for as our first choice(outstanding), we are on a waiting list for that. Waiting nos 4. We got a school with satisfactory EYFS for our DS. The news hit both of us badly as this was definitely not we quite expected and it's just recently that we started looking for a private school for him.

We started looking for private schools and we have managed to get an offer from the school we liked for my DS and paying fees is not an issue.
It's just that I'm so done with weighing pros and cons and few people around me asking me to justify paying for a 4 year old and telling how rude and self catered are ppl who go the private route(No offence plz)
and we have also heard good and bad for state school also.

We have no clue about education in UK as both of us studied abroad and would like to give best start to the 2 DS we have and best start could well be a private or state......help me decide.....please.

What is the intake for the school you are on the waiting list for? Do you think there will be movement? I know a lot of people who send their children private when they are in Y3 but if you can afford it and want to it is up to you. If really depends on the schools. A lot of the prep schools here have smaller classes but are lacking in space IMO. I think your "friends" may be jealous!

What do you think of the state school you have a place at? Were the children focused, engaged, calm? Were the teachers friendly and welcoming? A rating of satisfactory doesn't give much detail to go on.

I think the best thing to do is to visit both EYFS settings (maybe on the same day if you can) and pick the one that you feel the best about that YOU think will suit your DS.

Both settings will follow the same curriculum so the core learning on offer should not be that different (at EYFS, later is a different matter).

It's impossible to know without more details of the settings but differences may include:

Overall numbers. My school is 4 form entry so we have 120 Reception children all in one open plan EYFS unit together. A Reception class in an independent school could have 8 children and that's it. Pros and cons to both. Worth noting the adult:child ratios are likely to be the same.

Balance of adult led v child led learning. It is possible that there will be more adult led, group learning in an independent school. You may think this is a positive or not depending on what your child is ready for.

Extras like swimming. Again it will depend on the two settings but there may be extras like a weekly swimming lesson, tennis, small group instrumental lessons etc included in the school day at an independent that are not included by a state setting. (Somebody will be along in a minute to say their child does Suzuki violin, has weekly swimming, ballet, rugby and fencing and is learning to write Mandarin in their state Reception class, but I think those types of enrichment activities are less common.)

I think your gut instinct for where your child will be happy is the most important thing though.

I would suggest you ignore other peoples opinions, and that includes OFSTED.

What are you looking for in a school?
How important is sport? Academic achievements? Other opportunities? Being part of the local community? Support for any future issues? Your child developing at their own pace? Or whatever else is important to you.

What do you think of the various schools involved? Have you visited the satisfactory one? How do they match with you and your child (and the questions on what you are looking for in a school)?

Will you be able to continue paying fees and go through the fee paying route?
Do you realise private fees increase by about 5% per year, on top of age based fee increases? Will you still be able to afford it?

Education can be a very emotive subject to people, who can feel very guilty if they can't offer opportunities to their children you can. Also some people have an ideological stance against private schools. On the other hand private schools can be better sometimes at sales than delivery, so can seem to offer all things to all people.

The think you need to ask (both tactfully at the school, and generally in the community) about any private school which has vacancies for September this late on is "why?"

If it's simply that you live in an area unpressured for school places, then that's fine. But if the school is having difficulty filling its places you need to know why, and that the number of pupils that it does have are sufficient to keep it financially viable.

Aside from that, you need to assess the individual schools in exactly the same way regardless of which sector they are in, so essentially look fo the same things as you did when looking at state schools.

Then choose, from the schools where you can secure places, which one is likely to bethe best fit for DC and which offers the closest to what you think a good education looks like.

Although people talk about small class numbers being good I think that you need 18 or 20 in a class for social interaction and stimulus. I would expect a private school to have a TA full time in reception. If the class sizes are too small a few characters can become dominant & cliques form. My DCs read to either the TA or teacher everyday and changed reading book everyday. They did not have to read every single book in a level of the school reading scheme before being moved up a level. They did not have a class bear in reception, they wouldn't have been able to write about him themselves.

Tackling specifically the attitude, when I visited the independent school my DD now attends I was shown round on each of the 3 occasions before I made a finally decisions by different year 6s. Have you had this opportunity to form your own opinion of the politeness or otherwise of the children. I also believe that I am responsible in the main for my child's behaviour, but was looking for a school that had the same beliefs.

Agree, look at both schools and then go on your gut feeling. I was in a similar situation (We actually would have been happy with local "good" school but didn't get a place, put down a depost for a private school, then the school decided to run an extra "bulge" class so we did get a place after all but stood to lose a term's fees. We had to decide if to stick with our original choice but lose the money (though "save" money going forward) and the perceived advantages of a private school. Having returned to both schools, which happily had new pupils' welcome days on the same day to make things easier, I went for the state on basis of instinct and it was a decision I've never regretted.

Thank you for all your replies......Wee were lucky to get to see both school on the same day and my DH liked the private instantly but It's me whose juggling and my DH said you take the final call.......so.....

The school on the waiting list will not really move as number of students per seat is high in my area? The State school he has got into has 150 kids in reception last year so this won't be any different this year. Teachers looked disinterested and kids were being kids.

Just a small question....will a pre prep make any difference in my DS approach to learning and overall development.

The private school is an all boys catholic school but results and environment are just fantastic. I think I'm only confused because of friends who advice a lill to much.......

Would like to know ur experience of pre prep and how difficult is 7 plus for private schools.

You say will it affect your DS approach to learning that is not straight state : private comparison it is the comparison between the two schools you say the state the staff and pupils seemed disinterested. What was the attitude in the private classroom?
You say yourself the money is not an issue so take that put of the equation which school would you be happier with your DS attending.

Would you be happy with a Catholic school? Is the state school Catholic too? If not then I think thats potentially a bigger difference than state/private.

I wish we had the money for private - and hopefully we will when DS is older. He's currently in reception of a 'good' school (was outstanding until new Ofsted 6mths ago).

Ds was on the waiting list for our local state school (Oct b'day) and got in 3 days before he was due to start at a further away school. When he started he knew all the phonics & letter names, could read well, could count, add, takeaway, double, halve, say 1 or 2 more/less, count in 2s & 10s, had a great interest in science & how things work etc etc. His writing wasn't as strong but he could form letters correctly & sound out & write simple sentences.

After 2.5 terms in Reception, he enjoys the routine. Each day they have a different 'activity' and he loves knowing Mon is dance, Tues is singing, Weds is PE etc. The class has a full time teacher and 2 TAs/LSA's, so at least 3 adults each day, plus there's a full time foundation stage leader who floats between the 3 reception classes and the nursery. He definitely enjoys school (he hated nursery, so thats a huge relief and not to be underestimated).

But, I'd say he has learned:

• to play more boisterous games with friends (e.g. ducking when a car comes past)
• about many different multicultural festivals
• to mispronounce phonemes (e.g. he now says 'muh' instead of 'mmm' - which I've heard the teacher do, or worse I heard the TA pronounce 'ng' as 'ung-guh' - wtf?)
• his reading has improved, but then we read books we've carefully chosen with him each day - often his 'guided' reading book home is way below his level (even the level they've graded him as) and seemingly chosen at random (e.g. 1 week Percy the Parkeeper chapter book, next week Meg & Mog - 3 words per page!) & we've never heard what his targets are/what he's working on with them. I don't think he reads with an adult each week -when asked he says he reads with a yr1 child each week & couldn't remember reading with an adult (this may not be 100% accurate I realise, but he was quite detailed in explaining it all).
• maths - he's covered some of the topics he already knew.
• writing - he's recently improved a lot, but then again we work with him each week - looking at what he's achieving at school its not the same level & they're not focusing on forming letters correctly or using consistent typeface when using printed materials to model writing.

Massive post and obviously all schools would be different, but I feel that in a private school he would have learned more, coasted less - or if not we'd have had more right to go into school & as why not.

Well Teachers and pupils were very interested in greeting us and smaller kids were busy PE and rest were busy in class. Very positive all over and with state school I liked the attitude of a teacher, who helped me visit the school when I told her my issues.

catholic shouldn't be an issue....and the state school is not faith based.

How about 7 plus exam.....are they difficult to get through

Did your son have to sit 4+\ 5+ for a place at this preprep? Is the pre prep preparing for a particular prep you gave your eye on? Does it have good results? Of course the pre preps job is to get your son through the 7+ exams. But you find a fair amount of parents will still have their child tutored even tho they are at a pre prep! If your son goes to the state school and is consistently top of the class then he has a very good chance of achieving 7+ with consistent, parental coaching at home. 7+ is hard work, but only for a short amount of time. Independent schools work at being at least 18 months ahead of state schools. Your son would sit for 7+ in January of year 2. He would need to be familiar with all of the year 2 curriculum already at this stage. 7+ has got to be easier than 11+ or pre tests and common entrance!

"Independent schools work at being at least 18 months ahead of state schools."

I would be VERY wary of ciomments like this.

In my (state) school class, I have a whole group of children working 2-3 years ahead of their chronological age in English, and in the top maths set, many are working 4 years ahead.

I also have children working 2-3 years below their chronological age.

In a different school, I have had children working over an 'effective age range' of c. 10 years in a single Y3 class (so children working at targets for an 18 mnth old and others working at targets for the end of Y6).

So do you mean that the private school will be 18 months ahead of my top achievers? So at least 4 years ahead of their chronologcal age? Or 18 months ahead of chronological age - so well behind my top achievers?

I have had children transfer into and out of my classes into private schools...and let us say that the comparisons would surprise you!

(I have had children transfer friom 'doing well' at a private primary, straight onto the SEN register at a very average state primary. I have had 'towards the top of the class' children transfer into private schools and declare 'the work's too boring because we all get the same, it used to be made more different for me', I have had 'clever' children transfer from private primary into middle of my class, and I have had 'middle of the road' children transfer both ways with very little difference between the two systems. I would, in general, say the average level in a moderately selective private school is higher than in a wholly mixed ability cass in a state school (because the average ability is higher) but that the work done by a specific child would be very similar in each class, mainly because IME and observation, private school classes tend to be taught 'as one' rather than with 3,4, 5-way differentiation.)

At selective prep schools the children are extremely competent and familiar with working in the equivilent of the national curriculum 18 months ahead of what is being taught in state schools. As it is selective, most of the children are working well beyond their chronological age as well and are challenged and supported as needed.
Non selective independent schools however may not however have the same results.

It was "working two years ahead" where I used to live.

As a basic claim, that's marketing.

In academically selective schools, it might be true. Or at least true in the same way that in a non-selective school their top set/stream or most differentiated pupils would be ahead of the middle performers to a similar extent.

For the private school it goes upto 11+they also prepare students for 11+ exams for selective private school ahead. They just had a very lite and casual conversation with my DS. They said a 4 year old is plain sheet of paper and they fill colours in it when they join in. They have entrance at 7+If you are suppose to join in later.

The reason I asked for 7+ being competitive is because if we put my DS. After year 2. Thank you for all your replies and would like hear more of the experience from your path.

Is it a highly competitive entrance at 7+ - some "super schools" ie Colet Court 7+ is very hard, others it's a formality. If you are prepared to put in some effort at home then it's perfectly possible to do 7+ from a state primary, my children did, anyway.

I was in a very similar situation to you last year when I was offered a state school that I didn't like. We went with the prep.

In my DD's school there is a massive difference between their way of teaching and a state reception, the prep do very little learning through play and it is formal lessons from day 1, DD gets homework (a new reading book daily and 2 pieces of written work a week, plus holiday projects) she also gets spellings and maths tests every week. She has weekly french, science, music, drama, dance, gardening and cookery lessons. So it is worth asking about the curriculum as it's not necessarily the same as state.

Her class are often taught in small groups and even 1 on 1, homework and class work is differentiated and they all have different spellings but, as teacherwith2kids said, at some private schools they are all taught as one so that's also worth checking, personally I wouldn't be happy with a school that didn't differentiate work.

Depending on the private school some parents and children are rude and stuck up, however that's not true of all schools, DDs friends are lovely and the parents are very friendly, the majority of the parents are making sacrifices to give their children the best start and are actually just down to earth normal people, there are one or two who are a bit over the top and competitive but there are parents like that at every school, state or private.

To be honest it sounds like you already prefer the pre-prep and are just worried about what your friends have been saying, I had this with my friends too, I am the only one of my friendship group to have sent their child to a private school and there were a lot of comments about why I shouldn't (private schools are for snobs, its not fair to buy an education, DD will learn to be rude, the children will be stuck up etc.) DDs manners have actually improved since starting and none of her friends are rude or entitled, they are in fact all lovely children who play normal 5 year old games and the parents are no different to the parents at DS's state school.

thanks xihha.....yes they do differntiate between school work and homework.
but I guess ppl around me building it more than required as we are the only onez in the group thinking abt preps.

I hv a meeting in june in the state school so looking forward to tht and in meantime will secure a space wid deposit so it gives us more time to decide

Just double check how much time you do have to decide. Are you liable for a terms fees once you have paid the deposit? When do you become liable?
(I have known a friend give up a private place for a state one and forgo the terms fees and the cost of uniform she had already bought, but that is a big expense.)

You might want to have a read of this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2079273-Repeating-reception

It's very interesting.

"are extremely competent and familiar with working in the equivilent of the national curriculum 18 months ahead of what is being taught in state schools"

Yes, but as I have already said, my most able pupils are working 4years ahead of the national curriculum in a standard state school classroom. In a private schoolm, would they be working 4+1.5 = 5.5 years ahead?

And what is the 'national curriculum taught in state schools'? In my class, I might be teaching bits of the year 3 curriculum (to lower ability year 5s) and bits of the year 9 curriculum (to my most able year 5s). No state school teacher I have ever met [though tbh Mr Gove is pushing us towards it] sticks rigidly to the 'age related expectations' of the NC. We teach whichever bit is needed to move each individual child on.

It is, as far as I can see, marketing spin.

As a parent with a DS who has moved to a selective independent, I can agree with teacherwith. At his state primary the differentiation was excellent. At the independent it clearly came as a shock to his maths teacher that she was going to have to do this, not just for DS as they've identified a small group, and the work is still insufficiently advanced. We're happy with other aspects of the school/teaching so are putting this year down to experience.