Reading books and phonics

[slev]

Looking for some help please!

DS has just started bringing books home for reading practice (he's in Kindergarten so only just learning to blend letters). Yesterday's was all consonant-vowel-consonant words, very regular and easy to help him sound them out. But today's has jumped to include words like "sandwiches", "cakes" and "basket" (we're in the south so to me that's phonetically irregular as we'd have a long a!).

So he obviously can't read it on his own, but I have no idea how to help him with our without undoing whatever he may have learnt at school. Will speak to his teacher on Tuesday, but any tips on the meantime? Do I get him to guess the words based on recognising the first letter and the pictures? Or do I just teach him the word and ignore the phonics but accept he's unlikely to remember any of it tomorrow if he sees the word out of context?

Can't help feeling we need a lesson for the parents first - and this is Kindergarten, it's only going to get worse!

Ure is a sound on its own, according to DD. DD (aged 7) says it's p-yor or c-yor.

I think this an accent thing. Phonics International has 'ure' in pure and cure as /y+oor/ on one of the Alphabetic code charts. Which does sound right to me.

But that same chart has /or/ and /oor/ listed as different sounds.

The grapheme 'oor' is given with the example 'door' under the sound /or/

The graphemes it gives for /oor/ are 'oor' as in 'poor' and 'ure' as in 'sure'.

They all sound the same to me when I say them. I have feeling they might not all sound the same when my family in the NE say them.

I think that most of the graphemes with a 'u' in are a bit strange. Sometimes the 'u' is pronounced as /y,oo/ 'cue' and sometimes as /oo/, 'blue' (/oo/ as in moon).

So 'ure' is an odd grapheme, too. It tends to be found mostly at the ends of polysyllabic words, where it is usually /er/ (measure, treasure, leisure) and is rare in single syllable words; 'sure', 'cure', 'pure', 'dure' & 'mure' are the only ones I can find. I think I'd go for 'sure' as a very odd 'tricky' word and the rest as the 'ure' spelling /y/ /oo/ /r/. I think that these would be best taught after or alongside the 'ue' words so that the children can see that they follow the same principle. i.e. that the letter 'u' sometimes spells two sounds /y/ /oo/ and sometimes one /oo/.

In polysyllabic words which end with those morphemes (cure, dure etc.) the pronunciation is the same as the monosyllable while the rest of the 'ure' endings seem to be /er/

In the NE 'oor' gets quite complex, too; the word 'poor', which I would say to rhyme with 'pore' tends to be said as /p/ /oo/ /er/, as does 'moor', while 'door' is /d/ /or/... On the other hand, sometimes they aren't pronounced like that...

That's what I was thinking about 'poor' and 'door', mazie. Which is why I'm wondering if that's why the newer PI charts separate /oor/ and /or/. With the /oor/ being pronounced /or/ or /oo/ /er/ depending on accent. I don't think it's on older versions of the chart.

MargotIris I think you will have to try and sound out the words as you or the child would say it normally and see what you can hear. It is a grapheme that seems to stump a lot of people because of the variation in pronunciation.

I think you will have to try and sound out the words as you or the child would say it normally and see what you can hear.

good advice - it's usually easy if you say the word to yourself to work out the sounds you can hear and match them to the spelling you can see.

I would say pure as /p/ /yoor/ in my NE accent but my colleague would say /p/ /yor/ in his accent. When teaching always go with the local accent.

Just asked OH to say pure and he says /p/ /yoo/ /er/

Thanks all. This is really interesting.

Is your DH a New York Italian mrz?

No a mad Northumbrian with a rhotic accent

I'm about 99% sure my family say /sh/ /oo/ /er/ for sure and /p/ /oo/ /er/ for poor and that door is just pronounced as /d/ /or/.

I would say /sh/ /oo/ /er/ and /p/ /oo/ /er/ and /d/ /or/ in my local accent

I would say /sh/ /or/ and /p/ /or/ and /d/ /or/. So they all rhyme, which is why this version of the Alphabetic Code Chart has made me think a bit. /oor/ as a separate sound doesn't seem to exist on any of the other PI versions.

Why don't you email Debbie and ask her why she's separated them on this particular chart? It seems a bit odd to me, she usually just notes that some accents may pronounce a grapheme slightly differently.

FWIW, I say 'pure' in just the same way as mrz's OH and I'm from the other end of England...

I've found another version of the same chart with the IPA symbols on. Looks like 'oor' does = /oo/ /er/ and is different to 'or' /or/. So it's just a different pronunciation.

Mrz: Professor Martin Kozloff points out, a child who makes the effort to learn ten words in this way is left recognising just the ten words.

Really? I am confident that a child who really learn to read, for example,

bat
cat
fat
hat
mat
pat
rat
sat
brat
prat

learns merely to read those 10 words.

Sorry about the missing the s in 'really learns to read'.

As Professor Martin Kozloff points out, a child who makes the effort to learn ten words in this way is left recognising just the ten words.

Really? I am confident that a child who really learns to read, for example,

bat
cat
fat
hat
mat
pat
rat
sat
brat
prat

learns merely to read those 10 words.

I'm sure Professor Martin Kozloff is very happy that you agree with him masha ...twice!

Maizie: most of the graphemes with a 'u' in are a bit strange.

The -ure endings are problematic, because many words have a surplus -e: mature nature, endure failure.

The trickiest graphemes of all, however, are ones with 'o' in them:
the well-known ough words (through, rough, trough, cough, though, plough)
but also
on, only, once, other, woman, women, won, womb
go, do

good, food, flood, brooch

home, come, gone

sound, soup, soul, should, shoulder, trouble
our, your, journey

road, broad

Mrz
I was being sarcastic.
I am sure that a child who really learns to read the likes of
bat
cat
fat
hat
mat
pat
rat
sat
brat
prat
sprat
learns far more than merely those words.

Remind me how much experience have you had teaching reception beginner readers masha?

And just to provide counter-balance to the pro-phonics religion on here - Michael Rosen (the children's author) has written some very interesting articles eg:
michaelrosenblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/phonics-summary-of-my-views.html

It always makes me laugh when people quote Michael Rosen on teaching reading ... he writes books and that makes him an expert teacher?

That would be the same Michael Rosen, who like Masha, also hasn't taught beginner readers to read. If you've ever followed his twitter feed, you'll know he's a complete loon. About 99% of his objection to phonics is because he likes the sound his own voice and it;s contrary to what the government are saying.

I, for one, am glad that there is a counter-balance to what the government is saying. He is against phonics because of the way it is taught ie that it is the 'right' and 'only' way and that the early phonics readers are not encouraging children to enjoy literature for its own sake.I'm not sure that I agree with him but I think it is important to always consider that there are other ways to learn to read and enjoy literature.