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Primary education

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Original poster

Church school place fraud ?

101 replies

Whydidnoonetellme · 01/05/2014 09:08

We applied to a church school and were rejected on distance.

Since offers day, I have been astounded by the amount of other mums who have got places despite not meeting the strict criteria (attendance twice a month at any of 3 local churches for 2 years, as signed by the vicar, or by a church outside the local area for the same time as signed by the appropriate vicar).

At least 3 of these mums have told me verbally that while they are of that particular religion, they do not go to church regularly.

It appears that in reality, all you need is a vague interest in the church and a friendly vicar to sign off your lies.

Is this worth reporting to anyone ? Would the LA take an interest? I can not imagine the school itself wants to accuse their church or others or lying? Who could hold them to account ?

The schools admissions policy says it will investigate address fraud but mentions nothing else regarding fraud.

Any ideas ?

OP posts:
Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 09:55

And yes, I appreciate that they may just say that I wouldn't have got a distance place anyway which is a possibility. It's the not knowing that is annoying me...

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AuntFidgetWonkhamStrongNajork · 02/05/2014 10:18

Our local church school went through a period of losing appeals because although there was an attendance criteria, it was not measurable - totally relied on the priest 'remembering' faces, and let's just say one of the priests had a reputation for a worse memory than the other Wink

as tiggy says: Most schools who want to have such strict criteria also have to accept strict monitoring. They have colour coded slips that the family are handed at the end of each service to fill out to show attendance. They have a book to sign at the end of each service. Or they abandon trying to police such things and simply ask for baptism instead and no attendance requirement at all

There are now registers available for a brief period at the end of each service. It's only for 6 months though so for half the year you can't get a seat and the place is deserted for the other 6 months

tiggytape · 02/05/2014 10:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2014 10:39

Whydidnoonetellme - I have advised many people with appeals. I don't know of a single one who has become a social pariah or experienced any other issues as a result of winning their appeal. Stop worrying and concentrate on winning your appeal!

Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 11:40

Yes you're right. If anything stricter criteria will mean more bums on seats in the church anyway. I am going to request the forms.

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racmun · 02/05/2014 12:08

Right I am now inspired to appeal!
The church school near here has 60 places - 30church and 30 non church.
We applied for a non church place and their criteria say if not enough church applicants then the places will go over to open places and this has actually happened this year, 29 church and 31 non church.

They don't keep an attendance record of the church attendees, so would my argument be that they haven't applied the criteria correctly?

So, if they can't prove the church attendance of the church places (which I cannot see how they will) do you think I have a chance of winning as they applied the criteria wrong. Or is it a case of people above of us on the list would get the place ahead of us?

Thanks

Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 12:12

I was about to ask you racmun if you were going to appeal? Our cases are very similar...

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tiggytape · 02/05/2014 12:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

racmun · 02/05/2014 12:26

Ok thanks tiggy, if, using your example we were no 47 and we wouldn't have got a place even if the criteria had been applied correctly does that mean we would lose the appeal?
Even if the applicants ahead of us in the queue don't appeal?

Thanks

racmun · 02/05/2014 12:29

The distance for church places was 3.3km and non church 400m so there is a massive difference!

prh47bridge · 02/05/2014 12:54

if, using your example we were no 47 and we wouldn't have got a place even if the criteria had been applied correctly does that mean we would lose the appeal?

I'm afraid so. The appeal panel has to figure out if you would have got a place had the admission arrangements been administered correctly. If the answer is no the appeal fails even if none of the other people affected by the error have appealed.

racmun · 02/05/2014 13:05

Ok thanks prh47bridge. So assuming I appeal, it's accepted that the criteria were applied incorrectly but we wouldn't have got in on distance anyway and we lose what can actually be done to ensure the criteria are applied fairly in future?

Is my recourse to the OSA?

Zingy123 · 02/05/2014 13:10

How would this work with secondary? I am appealing for a place for my daughter. The school takes children from all over the city so everyone has to get form signed by vicar/priest etc. I don't know what goes in in other churches but in mine the priest has signed everyones form who asked. There is no signing in book he just signs to say you have attended. I know he has done peoples who don't go. Would the appeal panel be bothered by this? I couldn't say how many forms he has signed and how many got in as a result. I can't prove we would have got in if he didn't sign peoples forms who never go to church.

tiggytape · 02/05/2014 13:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Parietal · 02/05/2014 13:23

take a look at the website for the fair admissions campaign.

fairadmissions.org.uk/

I'm not sure they would take on something like this, but they are interested in documenting all cases where church rules end up making admissions unfair.

Zingy123 · 02/05/2014 13:27

I raised it with the LA who referred me to the school. They said they rely on the honesty of the minister. It is on the form to the minister that they must honestly say how often people attend due to the number applying 600/240 places.

Will raise it at the appeal.

Zingy123 · 02/05/2014 13:31

Sorry 600 applications for 270 places.

racmun · 02/05/2014 13:41

I've just done a Freedom of Infornation requesting asking for clarification of which churches the people attended, just so I can check out if they keep a register.

Is it a good idea for me to contact the school and ask how the ensure fairness or is that for the panel to do?

Thanks for your advice

Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 14:51

Does anyone know of any specific rulings whereby the word of the minister (honesty of the parents) for proving church attendance has been found to be outside of the Admissions code ?

Thanks for the info if anyone has it

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KnittedJimmyChoos · 02/05/2014 15:05

I find these threads so sad I feel for you op and also the poor parents having, to resource to subterfuge to get a school place...

why is this so?

Its maddness.

why dont you save your vitriol and instead write to your MP about the lack of good schools?

KnittedJimmyChoos · 02/05/2014 15:07

The numbers applying are huge in some areas and competition so fierce that nothing can be taken on trust anymore. Most people expect things to get tighter

complain to your MP!

Dont punish the parents who want their child to get a decent education!

Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 15:12

No one would lose a place once offered unless it was a fraudulent application (Address, short term rental etc). People appeal to help their child achieve the best education they can, not to disadvantage others (although faith based schools do disadvantage local people who are not of that faith, but that is a separate matter).

I have already written to my MP and local councillors. He replied back that he couldn't help it if everyone wanted to move here because of the schools....Not exactly that helpful.

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kawliga · 02/05/2014 15:15

Wow, surreptitiously taking photographs of your neighbours at the swimming pool every Sunday morning, accusing vicars and priests of lying, fraud and saying that they are 'talking complete and utter rubbish'...wow. It is a shame that the fight for school places has brought people down to this level. You might win your appeal and get a place for your child, but what sort of person will you become in the process? I guess you don't care, as long as you nail that school place?

It is also a shame that coveted church school places have exposed vicars and priests to these kinds of wars. I feel sorry for them having to fight all the sharp-elbowed mothers who will stop at NOTHING to get a school place, they will fight to the death and let nothing stand in their way.

Attending churches in London which have young children has become a horrific experience. You might be there for the liturgy but you are surrounded by desperate people all waiting for their little colour-coded slips to fill out so they can secure a school place.

Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 15:21

I think taking photographs was mentioned in jest by another poster. An appeal is based on whether the school has a fully legal admissions code that's all.

But yes you are right, there are liars and cheats at every turn in the admissions process, but it's driven by lack of places and a rising birth rate. Parents are simply adapting to this. I think it's a Gov't policy issue ultimately.

I am sure you will feel that same once you have gone through the process or perhaps you are lucky to live on the doorstep of a great non-faith school which no-one else wants and don't have to worry (oh actually perhaps you do if there are lots of siblings...).

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Original poster
Whydidnoonetellme · 02/05/2014 15:28

Anyway, I think I will butt out of this thread. I am going to receive our appeals forms over the weekend and decide whether indeed it is worth appealing or not.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Happy Bank Holiday too :)

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