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School refuses to give levels at consultation

141 replies

Millie13 · 28/03/2014 09:52

Hi I am a parent of a local school and we have just had a parent consultation . For each child I asked what level including sublevels the children were on ( for English and maths) and what their targets were for the end of the year . I was informed that the school will not give this information out to parents. They will only receive an end of year report with levels . However I would like to see how much progress has been made since the beginning of the academic year and I don't understand why this information is top secret and being kept from me .

I have asked before and had a meeting with the head which proved fruitless as she refused to give me the levels and it turned into an interrogation about why I had an interest in levels . I had to justify my reasons for asking and never received them! .
Could anyone please elaborate on this and how I can obtain them? Are they within their rights to withhold this information ?

OP posts:
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clam · 29/03/2014 11:37

I think that the reason that some schools are reluctant to give out levels is amply illustrated on the other thread on here about the woman whose child's tutor says they're a level 3, whereas the class teacher says "only" a 2B.

missinglalaland · 29/03/2014 11:50

Dealing with the general public is a pain. It's shocking to think that some parents are actually abusive.

However, I don't think any of this justifies a blanket policy of keeping parents in the dark. Some how it feels very controlling. Like living in a totalitarian state, where even having the temerity to ask questions about your own children marks you out as a trouble maker.

PigletJohn · 29/03/2014 12:31

Running a school would be much easier without those dratted kids and their nuisance parents. They should all keep their mouths shut and do what they're told.

Right?

anchovies · 29/03/2014 12:42

Can I just ask (probably a question that has already been answered sorry!) How will progress be monitored after levels have gone?

TeenAndTween · 29/03/2014 12:50

anchovies

Maybe every school will need to write a list of things they expect children to be able to do by the end of each year?

Then they will devise tests to see whether the children can do them or not?

Then in a few years time people will realise that some schools are more ambitious than others and children are coming out of primaries knowing different stuff, making secondary teaching harder, and also moving between schools?

So then maybe a national controlling body will say, wouldn't it be a good idea if these lists of things for each year were the same for every school in the country?

Then people will say, if we've got these lists, we might as well call them something. Lets call them the Curriculum Nationale, and maybe we should call each stage a letter/number combination?

Just a thought ....

TheGruffalo2 · 29/03/2014 12:52

Grin TeenandTween. What goes around, come around!

capsium · 29/03/2014 12:59

LEvels can be very important to people whose children lie outside National expectations, in terms of their educational attainment. If a child has a Statement levels have had to be given before each Annual Revue. I don't know what will happen with the change of legislation.

Levels are used to ascertain whether adequate progress has been made and whether any interventions have been successful. Without them the whole system of ascertaining which children have SEN becomes a meaningless. There nothing to measure progress against.

Since SEN affects what type of education a child receives there has to be some consistency in what is deemed a SEN. Now (since the new SEN legislation), of course schools will be required to provision map and the reference will be extra cost required to educate the child successfully...although when to decide to spend the extra money requires a fair and consistent way of determining SEN.....

luvmy3kids · 29/03/2014 13:14

They should give levels - they are not going away until next year. I'm sure Offsted would take them to task over it and you should be able to raise a complaint against the school without fear of recriminations.

it would be great if they could give more detailed information, but they are not required to by the DFE. it's a shame the schools don't use systems computerised systems for maths assessment that can quickly generate detailed reports - it might be costly.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 29/03/2014 13:17

Millie - could you approach it from a different angle - instead of asking what sublevels your child is on now, ask the teacher how many sublevels they have gone up since the beginning of the year. That way the teacher doesn't have to give the information they don't want to give you, but you can still find out if your child is improving in the different subjects.

luvmy3kids · 29/03/2014 13:18

They are getting rid of the levels, but not the point scores. It sounds like they will be doing the same thing as levels, but just calling it something different.

I think the DFE is producing more assessment tests that hopefully assess progress at the attainment target level rather than the overall subject.

I think they will be more frequent than end of key stage, but hopefully not too frequent.

TheGruffalo2 · 29/03/2014 13:22

Just to avoid confusion:
"They should give levels - they are not going away until next year" - I assume you mean next school year, i.e. September? The 2014 curriculum does not have levels and some year groups have had permission to start that new curriculum already.

Millie13 · 30/03/2014 18:14

In response to some of your posts. I did indeed ask for movement in sublevels but was told they could not provide me with this information . I am afraid I am one if those mums who find the level descriptors a very useful guide to indicate what my child is capable of and where the gaps in her knowledge are. I would like to support her at home . Just being told she is progressing doesn't mean much to me it's so non specific .

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 30/03/2014 18:23

In that case, I would search the net for descriptors of the different sub-levels, and then put together a set of more detailed questions, based on those - ie. if a particular sub-level involves learning your 5 times table (just making this up at the moment), you could ask the teacher if your dd knows her 5-times-table.

You could create lists of things your dd would need to know for each sub level, and find out from her teacher how much of each list she's achieving, then you can work on the elements she hasn't achieved yet.

It would involve some research on your part, and longer chats with the teacher - and either you will get the details you want, or the teacher might tell you the sub levels, under the radar or secretly, in order not to have to go through lots of detailed lists with you.

Alternatively you could find the information on the sub levels, and see for yourself where your dd is.

TheGruffalo2 · 30/03/2014 18:31

Trouble with that plan is that really there aren't level descriptors for each sub-level.

mrz · 30/03/2014 18:37

As TheGruffalo says sub levels don't technically exist only levels so it isn't possible to list what a child needs to know/be able to do in order to achieve c or b, a is easy as it is everything in that level descriptor.

EvilTwins · 30/03/2014 18:38

Sub-levels are, essentially, made up. I teach secondary. We have ditched levels at KS3. It has not made a difference to the way DC learn. They still get taught how to progress in different subjects. Ofsted info, in certain subjects, actively DISCOURAGES use of sub-levels, and certainly states that levels should be used in an holistic way, rather than for individual pieces of work.

EvilTwins · 30/03/2014 18:39

X-post mrz!

TheGruffalo2 · 30/03/2014 18:40

And if the school use APP an a is all of that level and a bit from the level above.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 30/03/2014 21:52

I had level descriptors at one stage - the dses' primary school gave us a booklet outlining the different stages - but that was years ago - ds3 is 17 at the end of the month - so unfortunately I don't have that booklet any more, otherwise I would send it to you, Millie.

mrz · 30/03/2014 21:57

Level descriptors for sub levels have NEVER existed SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 30/03/2014 22:04

Mrz, I have a maths list with three columns with things like "I know my 2d shapes" in one column and that highlighted because DS1 can do it. I assumed the three columns were the three sublevels, is that wrong?

specialmagiclady · 30/03/2014 22:09

Sorry to divert proceedings a little but I just want to pull up the person who said that 1 in 10 teachers are in the bottom 10% of teaching standards.

Is that what you meant to write or was there a typo? If the former, I really hope you are not giving your child extra support in maths. Happy to explain if you need me to. CBA if it was a typo as am my phone!

tiredbutnotweary · 31/03/2014 11:03

As TheGruffalo says sub levels don't technically exist only levels so it isn't possible to list what a child needs to know/be able to do in order to achieve c or b, a is easy as it is everything in that level descriptor.

Isn't that semantics though because each level has a breakdown of criteria (set out in the APP grids) and if you know how many of the criteria a child meets, you can determine a child's sub-level:- low = 'c', secure = 'b', high = 'a', they are just different terms for the same thing aren't they?

Where exactly does it say, in any of the official guidance, that a child must have achieved every criteria to be working at sub-level 'a'?

To quote from the Assessing Pupils Progress Handbook (my bolding):

Tick the box for Low, Secure, or High as follows:
–
Low – meets at least three of the criteria for the level across some of the AFs
–
Secure – meets most of the criteria for the level across the full range of AFs
–
High – meets all, or almost all, of the criteria for the level across the 4 AFs with some highlighting of criteria in the level above.

Common sense suggests that many pupils get to grips with some criteria from the level above before they are fully competent at every criteria from the level below.

It's also very interesting to read this, from Getting to Grips with Assessing Pupils' Progress:

Highlighting the criteria pupils have met across a range of evidence provides a visual picture of their strengths as well as gaps in their learning. It’s also a useful basis for a conversation with pupils and their parents or carers.

Well yes, it would be incredibly useful if teachers shared this level of detail with parents. Look, here's the grid showing all the criteria for level 2. As you can see dear Jonny has demonstrated a sound understanding of x, y and z. At this point criteria a, b and c are the ones he needs to focus on to move from being at a low level 2 to a secure level 2 or a 'c' to a 'b'.

PastSellByDate · 31/03/2014 11:11

QUOTING tiredbutnotweary:

It's also very interesting to read this, from Getting to Grips with Assessing Pupils' Progress:

Highlighting the criteria pupils have met across a range of evidence provides a visual picture of their strengths as well as gaps in their learning. It’s also a useful basis for a conversation with pupils and their parents or carers.

Well yes, it would be incredibly useful if teachers shared this level of detail with parents. Look, here's the grid showing all the criteria for level 2. As you can see dear Jonny has demonstrated a sound understanding of x, y and z. At this point criteria a, b and c are the ones he needs to focus on to move from being at a low level 2 to a secure level 2 or a 'c' to a 'b'.

Absolutely agree having this type of conversation would give parents the impression they're dealing with a professional, who is using national standards to appraise their child's performance and demonstrating that they are closely observing said child's performance.

Also a basis on which to go on and discuss what to be working on next at home/ at school.

Indeed one would call this approach fairly professional - a consultation in the way a doctor might tell you you have a disease and discuss options for treatment - rather than just tell you you're not quite as healthy as they'd like to see, but hopefully things will improve next year with the new doctor, who has achieved great things with this year's group of 'patients'.

HERE HERE tiredbutnotweary

TheGruffalo2 · 31/03/2014 11:11

However, APP is not compulsory and it doesn't exactly match the NC levels.

Swipe left for the next trending thread