School refuses to give levels at consultation

[Millie13]

Hi I am a parent of a local school and we have just had a parent consultation . For each child I asked what level including sublevels the children were on ( for English and maths) and what their targets were for the end of the year . I was informed that the school will not give this information out to parents. They will only receive an end of year report with levels . However I would like to see how much progress has been made since the beginning of the academic year and I don't understand why this information is top secret and being kept from me .

I have asked before and had a meeting with the head which proved fruitless as she refused to give me the levels and it turned into an interrogation about why I had an interest in levels . I had to justify my reasons for asking and never received them! .
Could anyone please elaborate on this and how I can obtain them? Are they within their rights to withhold this information ?

Moving "only" one sub level in a year is not necessarily a problem. The 'expected' progress is (or was) 3 sub levels in 2 years, which means at least one year won't be 2/3s

As others have said, the scores on the doors aren't always as useful as specific information about what to work on in practical terms.

bequiasweet We would never not inform parents about what they can do to help their children progress, and we always share targets with the children and parents. We just don't refer to the levels.

I also like to know levels mid year.

With my elder daughter I was told she was 'progressing well'. When I eventually saw the levels at the end of y4 (having not had them since being at a different school in y2), I discovered that she might have been progressing well, but that was from a low starting point and could have done with some extra input from me in certain areas.

With my younger daughter, I would like to know whether she is on target to hit her level 4s at the end of year 6. I have seen from my elder one that being below 4 for writing can have big consequences in secondary.

Yes it is fine knowing what they have to do to progress next, but in order to decide whether to spend (significant) time in the holidays doing writing / maths /whatever practice I would like to know on some semi-objective measure where they are.

DD2 is in y4. If I know that she is now on 3b or higher, I know I don't need to worry. If she is on 3c now, I need to keep and eye and support. If she is on 2a or lower then I may well want to do some intervention over Easter in whatever area the teacher or I think most possible/useful.

Also for good or ill, I have got used to secondary providing levels (and now GCSE grades) for all subjects every term. I don't expect everything to go up every term, but it is a useful indicator of progress (or lack of it).

I guess one problem schools have is that (some) parents will get dreadfully competitive and that (some) parents won't understand that progress isn't linear.

My DTDs' school only provides levels at the end of each key stage. At the end of each term, we get a report which tells us whether each child is well below, below, in line with, above or well above expectation for each curriculum area. I am perfectly happy with that and totally understand why the school does it.

When they got levels at the end of Yr 2, it was pretty meaningless to anyone who wasn't a teacher - other than the fact that we could compare the level with the expected level for that age group, it told us nothing more than the termly reports.

This is clearly a trust issue. I think the school obviously have something to hide, and would insist on them disclosing any information they hold on your children.

But then again, I caught my dcs school red handed fiddling with levels, have lost any trust in them (there are more incidents of the school being, ahem, economical with the truth), and I am looking at changing schools because of all of this.

Why does the school have something to hide?

EvilTwins: At the end of each term, we get a report which tells us whether each child is well below, below, in line with, above or well above expectation for each curriculum area.

You see, to me, if they are going to say that, they might as well go the whole hog and say the level. After all, in order to know where they are regarding expectations, they do have to do some kind of sub-levelling, so why not say it. Then at least everything is out in the open. Otherwise (especially e.g. with modern pressures for level 6 in y6 etc.), parents may not really know which expectations their child is reaching.

Poor show on the school's part, I'd be suspicious, why are they refusing to give you the information they hold on your child. Are they remarkably old fashioned? Are they worried about what you are going to do? They sound a bit unhinged. Why you want the information is only relevant in helping them reassure you they are doing their job properly.
Personally I'd rather not have them.

I was told this two years ago, and apparently levels are going to be abolished, so the school is increadibly forward or backward. Take your choice.

ATM, my DC know exactly what level they are working towards, and what level they achieve in every test. I'm undecided as to whether this is a good thing or not.

When children genuinely know what they need to do to progress to the next level, it's a good thing. When children are comparing levels it's not. (Thankfully I'm not aware of this ever happening with my DC).

Lynette I agree, my dcs are painfully aware of their levels and the other dcs in their class, but they are year 6 and Sats are brutal, any which way but win!

Children do not need to know the level they are working at. It does not help them to make progress.

I, as a parent, do not need to know if my child is a 3b or a 2a. I am willing to bet that very few parents could explain the difference between a 2a and a 3b in maths, let alone the difference between a 3b and a 3a, so how does it help?

I agree that it's a trust issue. If the school uses levels, I can't see why you can't access them. Particularly as you had a problem with progress last year. It seems very sensible. Surely the school will want to reassure you that they are helping your chid progress, and if disclosing levels will help do this then all the better (and if not, you surely have a right to know).

Our school used to have a policy of not giving out levels at parent evenings, but was happy to disclose them if a parent asked. The one time my child's teacher refused to disclose levels, I went to the head - and it turned out the levels were a mess (my son had apparently gone backwards two sub-levels in one term, despite very obvious progress). So, I would be very wary of a school that is unwilling to disclose.

Children knowing levels is really great if you want to check out if nephews and nieces are more or less academic than your own off-spring.

Maybe most parents don't know the difference, but any interested parent - including, presumably, the OP - only has to google the little grid that shows what a child is meant to do to achieve each level to get some useful information about what needs to be worked on/next steps (particularly if the teacher is not very forthcoming on details and comes up with 'on course' platitudes).

EvilTwins: I, as a parent, do not need to know if my child is a 3b or a 2a.

Whereas I do need to know. If my y4 child is a 3b I know they are doing fine. If they are a 2a, I may wish to do some extra intervention at home. What intervention I do will be based on areas that teacher says are weak, but whether I do some is based on whether they are getting behind.
And in the case my child is struggling in more than one area, the one where they are most behind is the one which will get my intervention (since DD2 needs a lot of persuading to do extra at home).

Actually, panicksbury, that's not the case. A quick google will throw up what the government includes in level 2, 3, 4 etc, but not the difference between 3b & 3a.

Knowing or not knowing the specific level is nether here nor there. If you, as a parent, don't feel your DC is making progress, then question it. Not being whether a child is working at 2a or 3c at a specific moment in time is not a reason to assume a school is deliberately withholding information.

But Teenandtween surely the information that a DC is behind expectation and needs extra support with X or Y is what you need, not that they are a 3b?

I did get a few odd answers at our first school after enquiring extensively it seemed ds was completely and utterly crap on entering and leaving reception - not true. Then year 1 teacher graded him 1a in maths at the end of the year and year 2 teacher graded him 1b in January - that's odd we said, oh there's been a mix up they said, year 1 teacher had screwed up - she was a governor too, all my friends had similar issues. School played the game, it was shit.

I think part of the problem is that the school can be thinking about their expected progress performance from where the child was at whilst the parent is thinking how is my child doing right now, in general, against national targets.

So a school can say X is doing really well and making huge progress this year - because they came into Y3 a 1b in reading based on Y2 KS1 SATs and thanks to all your hard work over the summer doing extra reading with your child and during the school year (school & support from home) they're now securely a 2b and there are still a few more months to go.

to the school the teacher has achieved 3 sub-levels progress (possibly more) in that school year. So brilliant progress in Y3.

To the parent 2b is slightly below national expectations (2a/ 3c) - so in fact the child is slightly behind where notionally they should be. They're catching up - but in theory the child could then carry on doing 1 or 2 sub-levels a year throughout the remainder of KS2 (so 2b end Y3, 2a end Y4, 3b end Y5, 3a end Y6) and fail to achieve the NC L4 benchmark (which from a parents perspective is pretty disastrous).

It is these two conversations going on simultaneously that caused problems for me - all the school were concerned about was establishing each school year that the child achieved expected progress - they weren't particularly concerned about raising achievement in line with performance (against NC Levels) generally expected by end of a given school year.

I'm going to "shoot from the hip," here.

Of course the school should tell you your child's nc level. Of course you should be suspicious if they don't. I find it patronising and condescending for a school to take the attitude that parents couldn't possibly understand levels. More likely the school is afraid of being challenged.

I remember my first dd starting school and wondering what on earth was going on. There was no meaningful feedback, just platitudes and vague positive comments. I felt like I stepped through the looking glass. Then at the end of yr2, we were given a report with these strange numbers. Neither dh nor I had a clue. Another parent with two dc at the school had to explain.

Now, I know that at least where we live, these levels do matter. The levels they leave yr2 with form the basis of their yr6 projected levels. At our school, dd1 got ahead of her projected trajectory and spent a very dull yr4. Of course a school or teacher would say that the projections are just a guide, but in my experience, at our particular school, the subsequent teachers follow them closely. They will let a kid lean back and cruise if they are easily hitting levels, they will get really serious and focus in if a child is falling behind projections. I am told, in our LEA, the levels they leave yr6 with will form the basis of their initial streaming when they get to the local compressive.

I am sure things vary around the country, but from my vantage point, I can see why parents get a little uptight, even in infants. Kids seemed to be channelled quite early, and any caring parent would want their child to have the best chance possible.

^ *PastSellByDate^ Yes, this.

Roll on September when NC levels and sublevels go! Then we can actual concentrate on what really matters, rather than getting bogged down into reducing children to numbers and data averages.

Our school never gives levels...only at the end of ks2. When both wee in reception and year one we never get levels at all. Surely all you need to know is how they are doing, what they need to work on and what you can do to help? Levels don't really matter surely if you know these answers.

Friend of mine worked in a school where they weren't allowed to give levels out. She had mixed feelings about it. It gave her a lot of hassle with some parents, and in many cases she couldn't really see any good reason why they should not be told. However, the school was in an area where some families were very pushy aspirational, and there were children whose families were putting them under horrendous pressure to achieve: therefore giving those parents the levels meant sentencing the children to hours of unnecessary after school tuition and, in some cases, to quite severe punishment. In one horrendous case it emerged that that included physical punishment. Unfortunately it was always the most pushy parents who put the most pressure on the teachers to provide the levels.

Surely all you need to know is how they are doing, what they need to work on and what you can do to help? Levels don't really matter surely if you know these answers.

Personally I find that levels help me know 'how they are doing'.

Children always have something to work on. That's fine if you always want to do work with your child in the holidays or whenever. I don't. At primary, I only want to plug gaps to ensure they don't fall behind as generally I think the holidays are for doing other stuff.

I guess not having levels is fine if you have absolute faith in every teacher in your school. However, 1 in 10 teachers are in the bottom 10% of teaching skills, so really there is a good chance that any school has one of these teachers! So something quantifiable helps.

However, I do suspect that some schools don't want to give out levels because of situations Nenny described.