What age to start preparing dc for 11+ and how

[ThisSummerBetterBeDarnGood]

Are there bench marks, aides and so on.

Is there a target for instance that should be hit by a certain age at school or there is no point even trying sort of thing.

At what age would I know my DC is 11+ material.

How will I also know if my dd school is covering enough material to get her through it. she is sept born 6. in year 1.

And FWIW everyone around here starts tutoring (either using a tutor or DIY) either Sept or Jan of Y5. Because the papers take more than a little practice, tbf.

There are lots of things to consider. My DS has "good" levels across the board ( good enough? Who knows ) but folds in tests. I had to take him home from school last month with stomach cramps because of his stress over mid term tests at school. (Before anyone calls SS, we put no pressure on him at all. It's entirely his decision to take the 11+, he is very competitive and drives himself hard. Everyone at his school talks about it a lot so even if we never mentioned it, he would hear about it constantly ) There is also timing to consider. Maybe your child has great levels but takes their time over their work. No chance for that in 11+, you have to fly like the wind through the questions.

Sure you get the odd child who can pick up a paper and whizz through it, but they do not make up the majority of the children that pass the 11+ round here. They need to understand the types of questions (esp NVR ) and techniques for elimination of answers if multiple choice, how to move on from a question if they can't do it and not freeze or give up. Etc etc etc.

I'm really glad to hear they are making the test less tutorable. I'm in Kent and would like dd to go because she is able, not because she is tutored. We do a few bits at home and use the bond books which will see her in good stead wherever she goes.

She achieved 3 s across the board at the end of ks1 and 4c at the end of year 3.

I wish we had a couple of good comps and not 1 grammar and 1 crap school. It's a rotten system.

DS3 in is year 4. I asked his teacher this year whether he was getting the right sort of marks to consider the 11 plus. He said absolutely. We'll start doing practice papers in year 5 (we do it ourselves - no paid tutors) & we'll also start looking around and bigging up second choice schools - will probably start that this summer term (bit early, but open days tend to be summer and early autumn and we want to have pretty much chosen a second & possibly third choice to big up to him by around summer of year 5 - and need to spread out looking around the schools).

No point even thinking about it in year 1 imo.

I don't understand why they take a test. If they do have segregate kids by ability surely they know which kids should go?

How else can they do it Lumpy? It's open to too much subjectivity and potential rigging by schools otherwise.

But surely the schools know the kids which would do well in a grammar environment. Then no one could be tutored into them.

But there are more kids that would do well than places lumpy.

Apparently in the ye olden days the headteacher had to okay the pupil's application - my uncle - in his 60's - still goes on about how he passe the 11 plus but the head vetoed his application

I see, I guess there is no perfect system. My concern is that there are kids who have always been in the top set, achieved good levels and they don't get in because the test is unfamiliar to them but other kids who are less able, but tutored, do well in the test and end up in the wrong school for them.

As I said earlier I just really wish I had 2 good comps to choose from.

IME that doesn't happen that often - around here anyway the children who get in are fairly predictable. Of course occasionally someone who was practically a dead cert doesn't get in because they had a bad day, but on the whole it's fairly easy to predict. I don't think masses and masses of tutoring helps that much - you have to do practice papers - and you may need to teach some extra maths and english because the test is taken so early now, but I don't think lots of tutoring will get someone with no chance into grammar school. The questions can't be rote learned - you can practice the style of the question but you still have to understand what the question is asking.

SATS I think are easier to cram for as the questions are more straightforward.

I see, I guess there is no perfect system. My concern is that there are kids who have always been in the top set, achieved good levels and they don't get in because the test is unfamiliar to them but other kids who are less able, but tutored, do well in the test and end up in the wrong school for them

I'd say, sadly, the former is exactly what happens around here :( There were several children who I thought (as a parent and a teacher) who should have got passed and were well-suited to grammar who should have got in. I wouldn't say anyone in DS's year-and I knew the children/parents well-passed, who didnt deserve a place. The ones who did were extremely bright and highly motivated. That's not to say that doesn't happen elsewhere though.

There will always be children who 'should' or 'could' get in who won't though. I'd say both ds2 and ds3 were typical grammar school boys - and 'should' get in. However, it's an exam, so anything can happen - hence the need to big up alternatives and reassure them that the world doesn't end if you fail your 11 plus.

It's the same later in life with university entrance as well - anywhere where only a certain number can get the 'prize' so to speak.

Having said that ds2's school has moved to maths and english only as the head felt that at least everyone receives teaching in that. IMO you still need to do practice papers really, because the exam is taken so early - but it doesn't need specialist study.

Groups are supposed to be fluid,they're not a badge for life surely and kids mature at different rates.Kids are also better at different things,some hide their light under a bushel,some are very quiet,some are lazy but bright,some are hard workers but maybe less bright,what defines bright etc.

One of my dc has been top of everything from day 1, his quieter shadow like twin hasn't.Guess which one is flying re the 11+? Yes quiet boy.He is scoring ahead repeatedly and doing less(because he's a tad lazy).

I'm not sure with 30 new kids they get presented with each year any teacher is best placed to make that decision.I also think they would be under huge pressure from irate parents.Can you just imagine the school playground,it's bad enough with being kids picked for sport teams.[ grin]

And yes many won't get in whatever.Such is life.It is important to big up the alternatives many of which are good.

I don't think there's a one size fits all approach. I have always taken a keen interest in the development of my 2 and when I've felt they're struggling or should be doing slightly better I sit down with them and we work it through - that's been the case since the start and as a result they've always been doing ok relative to their classmates. To deal with 11+ we bought a few test papers online (and a few friends had some) and the children worked through them over a couple of years before the test just so they were familiar with the types of questions. So we went for gradual rather than a big push at the end.

My concern is that there are kids who have always been in the top set, achieved good levels and they don't get in because the test is unfamiliar to them but other kids who are less able, but tutored, do well in the test and end up in the wrong school for them

Do remember test papers are everywhere, Bond books, Letts on line the 11+ forum and so on. There is no reason nor excuse why any child going for 11 + shouldn't have seen and familiarised themselves with the paper.

I think the press or somewhere has gone mad with the focus on pupils being tutored.

You are also up against children who have been in excellent prep schools, with far higher standards, a more academic environment, much smaller classes and more with a view to the end goal being the 11+ or entrance to selective private schools.

From day 1 those pupils have a huge advantage. With their whole early education tauhgt with such an end goal in sight, you may as well say they are being tutored from day one....

Add in, parents who are highly educated, professionals, usually meaning exposure to wider vocab and interests and culture and so on...these kids may even be tutored on top of all of that, but probably won't need it.

They will probably cover all the curriculum they too as well.

Now with over 1000 children going for 160 grammer school place at somewhere like Tiffen...

I would argue I need to give my child as much help as I can, because her school is good but we won't know how good really until we go further with it, and she simply won't have the extras that many others do as part of their daily life.

So we went for gradual rather than a big push at the end

This is what I want to do.

I don't want to make a huge deal out of practising for the 11 + ( should she prove material for it), I just want it to be a special day where she has to go and do an exam, no big deal and no huge stress.

I want her to be already prepared in a gradual way than suddenly making a huge thing of it. I want it to be more of, oh by the way in a couple of weeks you will need to sit this exam, but its no big deal.

It is important to big up the alternatives many of which are good Lots can change before we need to look at secondarys, but ours are shite.

I don't think masses and masses of tutoring helps that much

I agree I think too much is made of tutoring so many other factors will come into play and I think home life is one of them, although having said that my own father had shite home life and got in. But i bet competition wasn't as fierce!

I really dont think paying for a tutor to tutor a child of average ability is going to push them to 11+ standard esp in todays fierce competition but it may give a child who already has the abiliy, more egde

Thesummer - the biggest problem we had with 11 plus pressure was actually from peers. DS2 arrived home with stories of what would happen to his friends if they didn't pass and how upset their parents would be (I have no idea whether these stories were true or not!) and I had to do a lot to reassure him that it wasn't such a big deal, and nothing terrible would happen and no we wouldn't be disappointed etc. It wasn't from school or us though, it was from his fellow classmates.

My advice:

• Don't stress about it, your child will end up stressed too.
• Make sure schoolwork is done to the highest standard
• Go the extra mile to get homework done well
• Lots of reading and talking about characters and stories
• Explain everyday things in detail. Never gloss over.
• Do lots of extra curricular stuff, mental and physical (e.g. music, drama, sports).

We did all the above at a state primary and it counts for 95% of what you need.

My son had 10 hours with a tutor that explained how to do an exam and what to expect. 1 hour a week, at home in the run up to the exams. We spent £500. He sat 2 exams, passed both, interviewed and was offered places at both (Colet Court/St Paul's and City of London Boys).

His primary school levels were ahead of average, but not off the charts.

If I had felt the need to spend years and £1000s on tutoring him, then I would be making a mistake. Easy to say in hindsight, but we didn't do that and it worked.

I can't see why it is in any child's interest to start tutoring at all anything more than a month or two before the exams and only for exam technique. If your child need intensive English and Maths tutoring then exams might not be the best thing for them or you.

Yes I know, ThisSummer. Even tutored very dyslexic ds. He's very bright though. I have run (free) sessions for friends where I've pointed them in the right direction and recommended websites and papers to use. Even handed out a decent Malbec at the same time. Wouldn't even do much more than loads of reading and times tables till late y4/y5. Year 1 is far too early to make predictions in most cases.

I've got around getting dd3 working by teaching her with one of her friends. Much easier. Did the same with ds.

Btw, my dd's primary school in Kent is fab. Teachers tell you what they think.

saintly

Yes had not thought of that. Am just going to play down as much as possible, make it very run of the mil,l all children do them and so on. Its just another exam.

Thanks Married that sounds just about what I plan to do although we are starting to have home work battles.

We had homework battles. I found out that they had class reward systems (wall charts, marbles in jars, star points) and so we discussed having a system at home, got the kids involved in designing the wall chart etc and made them responsible for putting up the points and keeping count. They got to exchange points for books they wanted. It worked really well from year 2 to year 4 for both kids.

The other thing is to make sure their teacher is recognising and rewarding homework. One year my son had a teacher he didn't get on with and he couldn't be bothered to do more than the bare minimum. Thankfully all other years he really wanted to impress them as he respected their praise.

Also, if yours are early risers, try doing it in the mornings rather than sleepy hungry evenings.

All sensible advice from MarriedDad, would just add that its worth checking that kids have covered the maths curriculum - my dd is in Y5, and has had tutoring (for confidence, not for 11+ - we're not in a grammar school area, though she may try for some indies) and its clear that she has covered some areas with her tutor that her school doesn't cover until the middle of Y6. By which time its too late.

OP, re state schools being dire in your area right now - ours was too, when dd was in Y1. It started to turn around when she was in Y2, has been on the up ever since, and in the last few months I've started to feel its probably the best option of all and am getting less keen on the indie options by the minute

Amazing how much can change in a few years!