4 year old already struggling in reception

[MintyWalters]

My daughter is a funny, confident, self assured and fiercely independent little girl who on paper should love school, made lots of friends and be sucking it all up BUT NO! I know that my daughter can be a bit of a challenge in that she is very wilful but I just don't feel that the teacher "gets" her and treats her more as a irritation than anything else which over the last few weeks has seen her pigeonholed into the disruptive, behaviourally challenged" box. I believe that her class have picked up on this so are often on her case, pointing out, disciplining, correcting and alerting staff to any slight mistake she might make throughout the day. This can range from picking up someone else's toy, not tidying up immediately when asked, accidental trips or bumps into other children etc. Being excluded is one of her worst fears and when friendships naturally break down in the playground, my daughter is quickly broken, will cry loudly and sometimes hits out at her tormentors who laugh at her despair. it is easy to get a rise from her as she continues to battle with controlling her emotions and this has proved quite entertaining for some of the children. if you corner a bear and consistently poke it with a stick,,that bear WILL hit out and I am worried that this is happening to my daughter. In calmer moments at home, I have asked her which Little Miss she is from her book collection and she chooses Little Miss Naughty. She lashed out at a boy today and gave him a nose bleed. felt terrible shame, made him a sorry card before the end of the day and unprompted, tonight told me that she was a "horrible girl". My concern is that my daughter's card is now marked (by her teacher and worst of all her peers) and she has begun to believe that she really is that naughty girl so is now deliberately moulding herself into that image through increasingly poor behaviour in class. Two girls are often a bit spiteful to her (she has been good friends with them before school even started although they did not know each other) but the teachers only ever seem to witness my daughters loud and often physical reactions to their quiet comments. They are also the daughters of two of my best mum friends. In short, my daughter sticks out like a sore thumb. I know that her listening skills aren't great and it must be difficult and frustrating to teach her at times as she is such a "freestyler" always engaged in a song, but I fear that she has made life very difficult for herself already at just 4 years old and everything that made her unique is in danger of being slowly eroded away. I find it difficult to distinguish between how much of what is happening is down to my daughter's personality, short term behavioural issues common in four year olds (which i can discipline in the normal way) and how much is down to how she is being "managed" by her teachers/perceived by her peers. Help!

The best thing would be for her to tell a teacher instead of lashing out. Can you role play someone saying something to her and what her response should be. There is no excuse for physical violence. If she is feeling isolated etc she should talk to the teacher. Or you should. It would be worth holding a meeting either way to work out how to support her to behave.

Did she attend nursery or preschool, how was she there?

Articulate bright DCs can still have trouble processing information. Any family members on your or DH's side like this?

You don't accept rudeness or roughness at home so maybe as Onesie suggests, work on this with her.

If she were older say 5/6 I'd push for some form of external assessment but she's still very young and I don't think it would be that clear cut scoring and assessing her yet. She might not fit into an obvious box but it's early days to consider her 'card is marked' or that the teachers will label her as difficult. Can you arrange to talk to the head teacher?

The problem is that being unique, freestyle and loud are not attributes that go down well in a Reception Class. At the age of 4 they barely know what best friends are and friendships are fluid.

I think it is wrong for any child to be labelled by the teacher so quickly but you are aware that your daughter has personality traits that get her noticed. You cannot then be surprised when she is. The situation is obviously retrievable as she matures and understands what is appropriate. Don't forget what can seem funny to a doting parent can be annoying to a teacher if the "funny" behaviour is at an inappropriate time.

Most children do find their feet at school but she may have earned herself a "naughty" tag at the moment. You must do everything you can to get her not to rise to the challenges posed by the other children. They have discovered someone who will react to what they say but it will not be them who gets into trouble. Maturity to understand this would obviously be helpful. I would ask to see her teacher to talk through the issues and try and work together to improve the situation. This could include how to improve her listening and concentration skills by working on these at home. I would also ask the school to monitor the playground activity and perhaps see if a playground supervisor can take her under her wing and keep an eye on her so she is not provoked in the playground. I do hope the situation improves.

Can you not have her do half days until she,s 5?

She,s so very little , it could be tiredness. By the way take the info they tell you after you,ve given them the 3rd degree my dd said no-one played with her at breaks, no such thing, I went and spied a few da6s running.

I would see about cutting her hours. It,s a lot for them to process, the "rules" and your dd may not be as sicially mature yet. Give her a break and some time. If you feel she,s being put in a box, don,t allow it. Advocate for her, she needs you too.

With a pinch of salt(missing txt)^.

With the two little girls, as you already are friends with their mums, any chance of you having them round one at a time after school one day or at half term, then another day both together just to see how they act with DD?

Btw is she an older sibling, is her notion of playing akin to bossing? How is she with taking turns or sharing?

I'd be inclined to encourage DD to make other friends too, perhaps some activity out of school, eventually; dance or gymnastics if she's not too tired.

my daughter sticks out like a sore thumb exactly what I said about ds1. He went to a private nursery where he did well but looking back I can see he didn't have any real friendships. Within a week of school I knew something wasn't right. Ds1 has ADHD. he is now 18, in college and getting on fine but if we hadn't sorted it out when he was little I don't think he would have done so well.

I'm not saying that your DD has ADHD but I think it would be worth speaking to the teachers and requesting that she be assessed as she sounds quite unhappy. If it doesn't turn up anything then you need to speak to her teachers and agree on how she is to be supported in school.

I think you need to make an appointment to see her teacher and talk about it properly.

Thanks so much for all your comments ladies. I've just dropped DD off at school and had a quiet chat with her teacher. We are going to meet up next week and discuss ideas of support as well as discipline. Answers to your questions in the meantime:

1. DD is a second child with an older brother (19 months older)
2. DD is a very accomplished swimmer and loves to be in the water. I have tried to nurture this and she currently has 2 swimming lessons a week. She has an hour of gymnastics one day a week as well
3. DD is a really good sharer and is often first to pile in and help sort out a conflict on behalf of her friends. This isn't always welcomed
4. It sounds from the teacher this morning that it was a horrible playground duty yesterday and there were several disciplining issues. That's not to say that DD's behaviour is any less unacceptable but it seems that there are other social tensions in the playground as well as the ones my daughter gets embroiled with.
5. I deliberately stayed at one of the aforementioned girls birthday parties recently to see how DD interacts with her friends outside school and nearly left at the end in tears. She was bossed around by the birthday girl and the other friend as a team for much of the time to the point that the three of them needed constant supervision to help them recognise that their treatment of DD was unjust and unkind. I was quite shocked to see how apologetic and subservient DD became throughout the party and then how she persistently tried to win both the girls approval for the remainder of the day which was uncomfortable and sad to watch.

I am very firm with my daughter and I try hard to take an objective view of disputes between friends. I know she has issues with listening and taking instruction which I am working really hard at home with but I'm finding it all so exhausting. I will consider the suggestion to look at her hours again when I meet with the teacher next week. Thank you all for your feedback and please continue if you if any more.

Oh, and DD did attend nursery which she absolutely loved. She struggled a little bit with the "rules" such as putting your wellies on when you go outside, coming in when called etc but the staff adored her and gave her responsibilities that put her in a helping and caring roles. She responded brilliantly to it helping with the babies upstairs, the rabbit care outside and setting the lunch tables. She has been asking for a pet for well over a year now but I'm reluctant to do this as firstly I am allergic to pretty much everything. She cares for her baby Annabel really nicely at home. May be there is something in this that could help (along with a lorry load of antihistamines for me!). I was told that ADHD is difficult to diagnose pre 7 years.

Three can be a very tricky number. And surprisingly young DCs can show a ruthless pack instinct. I remember describing this to a friend, oh surely not she said, their parents are lovely, the teachers adore them. It was hovering on bullying. She had to see it in action to believe it.

In that case I recommend not trying to pursue any further help in this quarter. This isn't friendship.

Glad you saw the teacher this morning. She is your first line of help. I meant to ask, where does DD fall age-wise in her class?

I am so glad she's got a particular talent for something that can be sociable. It will boost her confidence.

What a shame - I feel for your dd I really do. Is it a large class size? I also have a 4 year old dd in reception and she's also a freestyler. She went to a nursery where I feel she didn't learn much and was not that happy but now she is at a school with a very small reception class and she has come on in leaps and bounds. But in the wrong school for her I can see that the outcome could have been very different.

Do you think the school is right for her?

If I can make a suggestion for you to present to the teachers. In my DD's class, there was a little boy who had trouble controlling his temper and would lash out. They came up with a special sticker chart for him for "Gentle Hands". He could earn up to four stickers a day, one in the morning before snacktime, one after and before lunch and then the same in the afternoon. If he had earnt a sticker for not hitting anyone, the teacher would make a fuss and make certain that anyone around knew that he had done really well for earning his Gentle Hands sticker. This make everyone cheer him on and put them on his side to help encourage him with good behaviour, rather than focussing on the negative.

DD is a March baby so she is in the middle I guess. Class size is 26 and age range is fairly evenly spread. Interestingly the two aforementioned girls are November and December babies and I have heard a totally unprovoked comment "I'm older than you" from one of them to my daughter recently. The sad thing is that DD had a lovely relationship with both of them before school started. One was at nursery with her, the other didn't attend at all but was in my daughters pre school swimming lessons. One daughters mum is a fiercely ambitious and competitive career woman who is not often at home (we are all friends btw), the other going through a vile and bitter divorce. I have tried to take this into consideration when exploring alternative theories to "My child has antisocial behavioural issues and possible ADHD". I don't know, may be I'm thinking too much into it all.

If the school and teachers are worth their salt, they will have seen this type of standard 4yo behaviour before and not start labelling your DD. Best if you don't worry about it and start doing it yourself! Concentrate on the good in her and tell her about her good points too.

Thank you AndiMac

Minty, could you also do some role plays with her, about what a friend does, (do friends say you cant play with us, for eg) and how to walk away?

Pretend to be a bossy girl, and get her to walk away.
Have her hold something in her hand if she's playing, but if the game turns nasty, and the others (you) are being bossy, and mean, that she's to drop what she has and to walk away. Teach her that its not ok to be mean, and it's not ok for her to stay if others are being mean. Tell her that she's not to engage, but to ask for help from the teacher.

If she has a temper, and acts out angrily, let her have a special bath mat that she has to stand on at home, to shout and stamp to download her feelings. Ask her to stamp and shout if she likes when she comes home and to learn not to act out at school. Give her a pillow to punch if she's really mad at someone- let her shout.

Make sure she's not dehydrated, and that she knows where the loos are and how to use them. A lot of reception problems can be sorted imvho by having a drink of water. Make sure she knows where her water bottle is and that she can drink from it.

Teaching her how to observe might be very useful as well, if she's eager to fix a problem which isn't in effect her business. Not everyone takes kindly to being sorted out by a third party. Ask her to identify faces and emotions. Get some magazines and cut out faces - get her to call out the emotions and write down the words for her. Put them in a scrapbook.

Caring for little ones and bunnies is all well and good, but to adopt the 'helper' role isn't useful to her in the long term. I'd discourage her helping so much- her job is to be a child, not a little helpful adult. Being teacher's little helper isn't something she should aspire to- its not helpful to her as a woman.

Ask her to draw herself in the classroom, as a blob, or circle, and the others as other distinct blobs- this might help her see herself as a distinct person who is equal (not better, not worse) than the other people in the classroom. Get the colouring pens out for a creative session. Let her draw the yard and how they play. Let her draw different scenarios- let her put smilies in the blobs to indicate who was sad, who was happy, who was angry, what she felt when X happened, etc.

Hope it works out perfectly for you.

Great post Venus.

Yes, great post. Thank you so much for taking the time to write down your thoughts. Lots of food for thought in advance if my meeting with her teacher next week.

I really think it's unlikely that it is anything major. She sounds in some ways too compliant and needy with her friends. She also sounds over-loyal to me.

My dd is a month younger and I find her friendships really transient at the minute, she had a three's a crowd situation at nursery with fairly frequent falling out with one of the girls (then best of friends the next day. ...). They are now in different classes and seem to be drifting apart while dd seems to be playing with some of the girls in her class. Sometimes she seems to play on her own (which she seems quite happy with also). She seems to walk away if someone doesn't want to play with her/doesn't want to do what she does ifyswim?

I'm intending to foster her new friendships, the other nursery friends are older sep/oct also hence in different class.

Hope the meeting goes well, I'm sure you will be able to put a plan into action together.

I would definitely encourage some different friendships....are there any other little girls you could ask for a playdate?

Minty Walters - I simply HAD to reply to your post!! My daughter was in exactly the same situation as yours (I was almost in tears reading as their situations seem virtually identical!) and I wanted to let you know that I know exactly how you feel and as a result, offer a slightly alternative viewpoint...

You know your own daughter...chances are, her behaviour is as result of her being unhappy, rather than suddenly developing violent streaks. If you feel there is something amiss, you are probably correct. You mention ADHD - it mug be worth considering if instead, you have an active alert child

www.network54.com/Realm/Spirited_Kids/budd.htm

There are also two great books if you read the link and feel this sums up your little one: living with the active alert child and raising your spirited child (see amazon etc...)

We recently took our daughter out of her school (the last straw was a birthday party experience that highlighted that it wasn't just the school environment but the social situation that showed that my daughter didn't quite fit with the others, which was as much her as it was them too!) as the situation was not improving and from September to Jan, our bright, confident, happy child had become anxious, tearful, angry etc...and as she is still 4, we opted to put her back into her wonderful nursery who have other children doing their reception year there (because it is so good!) and where the staff understand her and work with her needs, while also working strongly on the areas that require a little more attention (bossy and the desire to be in control DO present problems at 4 years old!). Within a few days, the difference was stark and we have our quirky, but lovely little girl back!! I am certainly not suggesting that you do this, it is a very personal decision and for us (my husband is a teacher, I work in adult education) took such careful consideration. My point is mainly that as we have seen such a rapid improvement, it was clear to us that for my daughter, that particular school was not quite the right fit and we now have a but of breathing space while we consider our options.

Throughout the process, a friend offered the advice that if you don't do what is right for your daughter, no one else will. We decided to do what was right for us and everyone is different (circumstances, situations etc...) and as mentioned at the start of my post, you know your daughter and you I know what is best, so all you can do is start working through your options (and some of the really good advice in the posts) and I am sure that you will find the best solution along the way.

I hope that your meeting goes well with the teachers and above all else, ENJOY your independent, wilful little girl...I expect the traits that make her stand out now will also be the same ones that serve her so well in her future!

Thank you mumstheword21. I found your comments really helpful. It's such a comfort to find a mum who has direct experience of the same issue. I will check out the links and consider nursery again. She was always very happy there and asked to go back recently. I'm going to gauge how the teacher is as I feel that she is part of the problem to a degree and go from there. Thank you again.

You could be talking about a child at dds school. She has really struggled. I work outside the home so I have not seen any of it in action but what I have heard from her own mum and other mums has shown she is having a real struggle settling in. 2 things I would say, her own mum keeps making excuses without trying to work with the school to improve the situation, please do not do that it alienates the child. There is a problem acknowledge it and see what you can do. Secondly remember the child is only really a baby going though a huge, huge transition. She needs encouragement and praise and does not need the crap of the pressure of the real world on her shoulders. Be patient don't expect too much and be on her side. They may sound conflicting but in practice they really are not. It is all about moving her on at a slower pace until things settle down.

Your post struck a chord with me too. We had a lot of similar issues with DS1 last autumn when he started pre-school. It was a very horrid time for all of us - I don't think I have ever felt so anxious or worried about something. School weren't very helpful - just lots of moaning and 'lets wait and see'. My poor DS couldn't cope with pre-school and was labelled as a difficult child et. Looking on here I discovered lots of things you can do to help - I did lots of research and went to see Tinsley House Clinic. 15 months on DS is transformed and doing very well in Reception. We still have a way to go, but it has just been wonderful. There are two books - Is This My Child and The Brain Food Diet as well as the clinic. Very happy to chat more if you are interested. Whatever you do, your DD will be ok as she has you as a Mum and you so obviously care and understand her. Good luck xx