what are PTAs supposed to do and can the HT do this?

[sashangel]

Sorry for waffling.

I went to my first PTA meeting on Thursday night and I am very confused and not sure what they are supposed to do.

We started by discussing how much money had been raised and where the money had come from. We were given a simple break down on paper and a total in the bank. At this point the chairperson (a teacher from the school) said that the head teacher had something to say.
He told us that he had taken £3000 to "shore up the school finaces as it is getting to the end of the year and it is a struggle with all the teachers that have been off sick but he hasn't used it yet". He also advised us that he is having an Internet safety week due to some circumstances that had arisen and is going to cost £450.
During the walk home from the meeting I suddenly realised what he had said. He was telling us that he had taken £3000 to pay for cover teachers.
I have spoken to the parent who is the vice chair the next day and he said that he thought that that is what he said but knew nothing about it and is going to bring it up with the chair.

My question is...can the head do this? My understanding of what the PTA fundraise for is extra stuff such as the Internet safety week or to subsidise school trips etc not to pay for staff sickeness or to subsidise the school budget. Should he not have to formally ask and provide a reason why he needs the money?

The problem is that all of the main people of the PTA are school related (teachers, TA, school staff, governors etc) apart from the vice chair who I said earlier knew nothing about it. They seemed to defer to anything that he said. They also taked about what they had discussed/agreed in the staff meeting.

I am thinking about putting myself down as treasurer but I don't know what that entails.

Does anyone have any advice?

Minutes are public. As a parent at your school you are automatically part of PTA, and so entitled to see minutes etc. Is there a secretary?

The PTA at the school I am a Governor of, is a seperately constituted charity. The PTA committee at formally minuted meetings decides what the money is spent on.

And yes, of course they consult the Head!

BUT they have a seperate bank account, and money can only be spent out of it when authorised by the committee and the Head certainly could not just "take it". Paying for a cover teacher would not, by the way be seen as a proper use of money.

Yeah it is primary. There were seven teachers and TA's who take up all of the "committee" seats minus the vice chair and he was voted in and didnt really want to do it. There were seven parents but I am not sure if that is normal.

I have made a list of everything I am going to ask the chair person tomorrow. I didnt realise hat PTA was so hard lol

When I worked in Education I did know of schools fundraising so they could have an extra part-time teacher. This was a while ago now but it was out in the open and agreed by all. However I cannot say I actually agreed with it because I am not sure all children had the benefit as there was little money left over for anything else!

I think there is definitely a problem with a teacher being the Chairman. There is also a problem in saying the only vacancy is for a Teasurer. You fill the vacancies on the committee as set out in the constitution and THEN take nominations for Treasurer. Obviously no-one wants to do it. If you want a good PTA it must be run by parents. It should be a charity and it should produce an annual report/accounts about its work. If it has vacancies, these should be communicated to all parents because all parents should be members of the PTA. This PTA needs a bomb up its backside and has got into this state due to lack of parental involvement. We only had one liaison teacher on our PTA! Try and get parents to take control and then it may have a chance of working as it should.

The more I think about this the worse it seems.
Why are the posts all held by staff? How come the parents are not on the committee?

The head can't, just CAN'T take money from a PTA unless they authorise it. And never for staff costs.

Stick to your guns sasha, it obviously needs someone to ask questions

That's awful. And no wonder they don't currently have a treasurer. There is absolutely no fricking way I'd approve an invoice for teaching costs against the pta account - pta funds aren't to cover the school's financial mismanagement.

£3000 is two Christmas Fairs round here - a huge lump of money. You could replace nearly all the reading books in school, or send every child on a day trip, or something. Not small change.

Our pta constitution states that the funds raised are to be used to 'enhance' the education of our children.

Teachers in classroom are a requirement for education, not enhancement. We have funded stuff like outdoor play equipment, laptops, reading books, sofa for the welfare room...

In other words the things that aren't essential bit make a huge difference.

Teachers present requests at meetings, and we vote on them. We do have teachers attend meetings (a representative from Infant and Junior schools) but only the VC is an officer and parents fill the other formal roles. You should follow this up as it doesn't sound right at all.

That's not on at all.

A teacher should not be the chair. It should be a parent and their should be a process in place for funding requests to be considered and approved by the committee. There should be a paper trail in place and the accounts audited every year.

I'm a treasurer....this all sounds highly irregular.

That's not on at all.

A teacher should not be the chair. It should be a parent and their should be a process in place for funding requests to be considered and approved by the committee. There should be a paper trail in place and the accounts audited every year.

I'm a treasurer....this all sounds highly irregular.

OP, did you get to speak to the vice chair today?

7000 to upgrade windows? Could they not get a better deal than that? I would have thought that was the retail price, surely education establishments can get cheaper? Let alone if you went down the charity line - there are companies that provide software at hugely discounted rates to charities.

If it is set up as a Charity I would not take a position at all. All on the committee and possibly some others will be "Trustees" this is a serious legal and financial position (equivalant to being accompany director). I would steer clear of being involved in anything which sounds as dodger as this.

Schools often have to use approved contractors and may not be free to use a local firm to replace windows. The windows may not be house type windows either so it is not always wise to make assumptions on what is vale for money and what is not. Educational establishments are not special cases! It has also been justified by schools that have spent PTA money on a teacher by saying an extra part time teacher does enhance the education of the children. When schools have budget cuts the parents often do want to maintain teaching levels so DO want the teacher. Not all parents feel the same and some are very attached to maintaining small class sizes.

Schools cannot use PTA money to pay for teacher salaries because the money cannot be guaranteed to be ongoing.

millymolly - this is updating the computers to a later edition of windows I think.

Sorry yes it was upgrading the school computers to windows 8
The classes at at capacity of 30 each class (2 classes per year). It is to pay for cover teachers not normal teachers.

Oops!!! Took that a bit too literally there!!!

Littlefish. There are such things as short term teacher contracts. The schools I am thinking of raised funds specifically for the part time teacher. It was what they wanted and the teacher was funded for the hours that they could pay for. They can do this but I said earlier I did not agree with it. However the point is that it is the parents who decide what to do with the money they raise and if they want more teaching time as an educational extra then so be it.

However, using it for supply teachers is probably not what the parents had in mind. This expenditure is probably due to covering unplanned sickness. Long term sickness really messes up a school budget but I think the Governors have to balance the books within their resources and not raid the PTA money. If it is for any other supply cover then the Governors are not doing their job properly!

I have spoken to the vice chair today (he dropped of a parcel :-)) He spoke to the chair who said that she didn't think that it was right and is going to have a word with the head. Nobody seems to know what is happening! We are all so angry about it (other parents I have spoke to and the vice chair)

I have found out that it is a charity but not sure what that actually means.

It seems that the "treasurer" at the moment, who doesn't really want to do the job, has signed of on the £3000 and gave the head a cheque! I am not sure who countersigned (I am hoping it wasn't the head) but I am getting things second hand and I don't like it. It also never went to the committee. He has take over 80% of the PTA budget by calculations.

I am going to go and see the chair myself when I pick up DD.

Something needs to be done ASAP and if I have to kick up a fuss I will. I will not be giving money to the PTA again until it is sorted. I am sure that if the other parents at the school would stop if they knew what had happened.

I am getting more angry about it the more I think about it.

If it's a charity then give the charity commission a call. You can say that you are concerned about a lack of finacial probity.

If it is set up as the PTA I know is, then he is not allowed to issue and sign the cheque unless the decision to spend the money has been agreed by the committee.

Committee minutes are a legally binding document, they have to be set out in a certain way, and decisions have to be logged. If, for example, there aren't enough people present, then the decision is not legal, and has to wait until there are enough people at the meeting.

The accounts must be audited every year. You could ask when that was last done.

The whole point of countersigning cheques is so that no one person can make a decision or commit fraud.

Our informal policy is that nobody signs a cheque to themselves - so if someone who is a signatory needs expenses paying back, two other signatories sign the cheque. And we don't sign big cheques without seeing an invoice. A culture of openness protects all of us.

Have you found out any more OP?

We have got a cheque for the £3000 back but HT isn't happy.

He spoke to the chair who is only new to the the job herself (started in September) as she is going into hospital for a operation and may of needed the funds and it had been done before any thing he didn't use he would give back!

The cheque was signed off by the treasurer (who doesn't want to do it any more and hasn't been to any meetings this year) and a old PTA member who is still a signatory.

We have called an emergency meeting to have these people removed from being able to sign cheques. I have also made a form for formal requests form for the HT/staff that they will need to justify from now on and some rules on what the money can be used for (need to be ratified by the committee).

I am glad that I went to my first meeting as I am now trying to get things in order (not really my job though).

contact the NCPTA www.pta.org.uk/running-your-pta/
they will be able to give you backup and information to get the head back into line

I have sent off for info on joining as I noticed that they do give help for the main roles of a PTA but again it is something that needs to go to the committee as there is a charge involved each year.

If it was up to me we would join it as any help keep the whole thing in order.