School friends from deprived families

[poppytin]

DS1 just started reception in September. We didn’t get our first choice of school which could be seen from our house due to oversubscription and sibling rule. DS1 now goes to second choice school which is in a more deprived area although the school has performed rather well and been improving. We’re 7th on the waiting list for first choice school which has very low turnover so chances of getting in are pretty slim. I have no issue with the school as given its circumstances ie high FSM and SEN its performance is very good. However I can’t seem to make myself like the families of the children there. At the school gate I’ve met people in their pyjamas, with cigarettes on their fingers, piercings on etc. I’ve seen people shouting/swearing at each other in the playground while waiting for their children. DS was invited to a birthday party of one of the boys in his class and it was the worst house I’ve ever set foot in. Mom was in nightie with a cig on when we arrived at mid day. DS1 appears to be academic, loves reading and writing, both DH and I have masters from redbrick units and are in professional jobs, our house is walled with books and CDs.

DS loves his school and teachers which is the main reason I’m using to calm me down. However I worry whether the environment where his friends grow in would have an impact on him and his education.

Any opinions?

I'm not sure anyone on the thread doesn't want to do the best for their children. I think there's just a massive difference of opinion on what 'doing their best' means in practice.

The OP used a lazy stereotype to make a judgement of people despite fact that many of the things she picks out happen across all walks of life. She added to it with a dose of smug 'I'm highly educated and read so I'm considerably better than them' and then finished with a bit of 'my child's going to be damaged by mixing with these people'.

In terms of qualities of a good school I think that's personal as well. For me academics are important, that's a schools primary aim. But inclusion and tolerance are important too. That's for ALL children and families, not just the ones I think are worthy or the right sort of poor.

My children go to a company assigned school where many of the pupils are from extreme wealth.
There are Rolls Royces at drop off , drivers , maids , nannies galore and when the scheduled flight was delayed on a school trip , a mum lend her private jet.Birthday parties can be like carnivals and mum likely to be dripping in Bulgari
but hidden under abaya among us mortals .
I have to work at convincing my sons thinking life of a billionaire is normal.

OP could balance school with some exclusive after school activities
like ballet or tennis or join a tutor group.

Summerworld. I completely and utterly agree with your pov. I am also from a country without an obvious class system, have been living here for 20 years and understand where you're coming from.

The funny thing is that not many members of the 'underclass' referred to upthread would return the 'tolerance' and 'we are all the same, isnt it naice, lets get along' attitude. I am from a mixed ethnic background and have experienced more overt racism by people from a deprived background than from mc people. Not sure why but that is my personal experience.

I think many posters on this thread confuse tolerance and acceptance with blatantly ignoring what's in front of you. There are indeed families who don't give a shit about raising their children well, respecting other people's boundaries, being polite etc. These can, of course, be found across all classes.

However saying that being from a deprived family is just dandy and that there are no issues with parents swearing at their kids, slapping them casually on the way to school and not bothering to get dressed when going outside or hosting a party ignores the fact that social interactions, friends and family do shape children for better or worse. Depending on the circumstances and on the personality of my DC I would take my dc out of a school where bad behaviour (of parents and children) was the norm. I would then try and find a school that was nurturing had excellent discipline and a mixed crowd of people, hopefully without one dominant social class.

The OP has not commented again (as far as I know) but has obviously triggered a passionate exchange of opinions. I do quietly wonder who would have an interest in reading about these opinions.

Answering the question upthread, in my country any self-respecting school will ask the persistently disruptive child to leave as in "exclude on the grounds of poor behaviour". Bad schools do not care.

It is not tolerated that the other 28 pupils' learning is affected by one child who does not think much about education. So, generally pupils tend to behave because their parents will not be impressed to receive a request to leave, look for a new school etc.

Here, I have watched the teacher spend 10 minutes calming down this one individual while the rest of the class sat nicely doing nothing while waiting for the environment to become conducive to learning. This is wasted lesson time..

Mrs, not in my personal experience but yes I know that that happens. I wonder if (generalising here) professional people who work in jobs with colleagues from a wide range of backgrounds, cultures and ethnicities are generally more tolerant of other because it would be expected by their employer and also they work together, get to know each other and mostly get along alright.

Anyway, I don't want to digress from OP which imo was worded in a provocative way. Actually it sounds like a reverse aibu...

Answering the question upthread, in my country any self-respecting school will ask the persistently disruptive child to leave as in "exclude on the grounds of poor behaviour". Bad schools do not care

Here, in good schools, they will address the problem by finding out what is causing the 'bad behavior' and do their best to solve the problem and support the child.

Children don't behave badly for no reason.

There is always something that can be done. A child shouldn't be written off.

Mrs Devere and love- I agree that racism exists across all classes, but is more overt when it comes from certain pockets of society. I'm not sure whether overt racism, subtle racism or institutionalised racism is worse.
I have experienced all three types - the overt racism is shocking and makes me feel immediately threatened, the subtle racism is very nasty and challenging it often brings a chip on the shoulder type reaction and the institutionalised racism is so inbred in society that it will take a long time to see any change, the Macpherson report did little to really change things.
However, not all things perceived as racist always are and it's about balancing things objectively.

Certain kinds of people only like being with other people who are similar. And, clearly, people from separate races have differences. But a legal framework which outlaws racism (and discrimination on the grounds of race) will indeed curb the effect of racism mightily. The motivations for being racist don't disappear. But a lot of the behaviours which go along with them do.

On the other hand, traders, writers, designers, students and cosmopolitan folk of all kinds flourish in cities where different races mix. And obviously, for them, an enforced policy of racial tolerance is a bonus.

Message pre-deleted by AlbertGiordinHoHoho for being about to break the Talk Rules - they aren't guidelines. Replies Encouraged.

Hah I actually went to a Russell Group University and I went to an all girls Grammar School and I STILL had to see what a Russell Group University was!! #saysalot

I've not been on MN that long, am 37 and will shortly be TTC #1 with DP. But 3 things I've noticed about MN is that for all information, anything ad everything, MN is the place to come. I'm also amused by quite frankly some of the ludicrous names on the baby name threads. Do people really choose these names?

So I've not nticed people being snobby, But one thing I've noticed, and sadly so, quite how horrifically bitchy some posters can be. Most seem lovely, but wow some really need to wind their necks in!! It seems to be across all threads which is a shame. I just think "really, was that response necessary?"

'swearing, pijamas at noon, fags on the doorstep, violent dogs, lack of aspiration and common manners.'

I agree that the last two here are not good. The others: why do you lump them in with lack of aspiration and common manners? Do you honestly think that only people with those two traits ever swear, stay in their pijamas, smoke on the doorstep (I'm particularly struggling to see the problem with THAT one tbh) or own 'violent dogs' (by which I'm assuming you mean certain breeds or types)?

If so then your thinking is crude and simplistic and I'd personally find it hard to take your views seriously.

Lack of aspiration and common manners are sadly not just a trait of the underclasses, as described in a rather dark kafka-like manner in the OP..

I have had children in working class mixed with council estates, middle class and upper middle class type schools and lack of aspiration and common manners was firmly present in all three.

You'd be surprised for example how many very rich people have poor manners (including swearing, defrauding, and generally being obnoxious) and poor parenting skills; you'd also be surprised at how certain members of society have very little ambition for their daughters;
and you'd be surprised how many middle class people think their children will be fine as long as they are happy, therefore not raising them with any aspirations beyond the next Xbox or Wii.

If I were you, I would try and look beyond the surface...what you say might be totally true, but you must look beyond the façade and dig very deep.

Children in MC families can afford to stay away from a lot of troubles or MC parents can afford to keep their kids away from many sorts of troubles. Many MC kids do do extra after school enrichment activities. Also MC parents are more able to support their kids academically as well as provide more comfortable environments. MC parents more able to use and share their life experience and knowledge to assist their kids to get ahead in school and work.

I didn't know anything about 11+ until my own dc1 started yr 5. My parents didn't and couldn't care a monkey which secondary school I was going to.

When I started my first job in an office where most people come from MC homes only then did I realise the cultural differences between WC and MC. I mean most of my colleagues went straight from schools or private schools into unis and many didn't stop until they reached Master degrees or PHDs.

I fully understand what OP means. I am chasing that MC school dream myself - I am intending to move from deprived to MC area.

Main reason is that my DS1 (5yo) has some character traits and tends to pick up/copy the bad stuff. So he really, really needs to be in a positive environment to copy the good manners. DS2, I believe, will do well in any enviroment, so we could live in the midst of deprivation and I would not worry so much.

It depends so much on a child.
I also would hate seeing smoking, swearing, undressed parents in the playground. Thankfully, our school is not like that. Or, I don't see, because I go to work every day.

Is your masters only from a redbrick? TBH we prefer our kids to play with children of Oxbridge grads like we are. It's only natural to want to be with your own type of person after all.

Well I for one would agree from the sounds of it

It's swings and roundabouts. Firstly you are the main influence in your child's life during the infant years. Secondly I can understand the need to feel comfortable sending your child on various play dates at people's houses.

However my boys attend an extremely middle class school with excellent top grades and poor discipline. The other parents have a wide variety of educated backgrounds but there are still houses I'm hesitant to send my kids to. Kids that boundary push to the extreme and are a poor influence.

Some kids will do well where ever they are but other easily led kids won't. It's just a case of finding the right environment that suits your son, what ever that is.

If you are really worried you could always homeschool, which can be very social. Or alternatively look at other schools or just wait till a space comes up.

It might be worth getting to know some of the school parents a little better though as people can be nice/have a good work ethic yet be skint.

By the way not everyone had MC class upbringing with highly academic qualification ended in some kind of well pay or high power position. Many of them only ended in very average jobs often totally irrelevant to their studies. One needs to have a clear direction in life to stand a better chance to get into a career that is meaningful to that individual. I've worked with a big firm charter accountant who never went to uni but got only professional qualifications. He said went to private school and left full time education at 16 knowing accountant was what he wanted to be so he started to work and take professional exams since. Around the same time his friends finished unis he was already a qualified accountant. My own brother didn't want to go to uni but he knew he wanted to be an engineer he focused on all the necessary professional qualifications to get into the career that suits him.

I feel it is equally (if not more) important to encourage my dcs to think about what they want to do or are interested in as their future vocations. It is about making learning meaningful to them. Perhaps I am only talking common sense...............

It's maybe worth focussing a little on emerging adults who for some reason just know what they want to do in life.

I've met just over half a dozen who knew before the age of eighteen: If we discount the girls (and one boy) who wanted to be photographed that cuts it down to four. (One just wanted to be rich, and almost had a good stab at it, until he ran off after an ex girlfriend and ruined everything.) One wanted to be an engineer, and is a very good one. And one wanted to be a chef, and still is. (And one extra one wanted to be a dancer and works in a shop.)

Most of the other people I know, in and out of uni, had no idea what they wanted to be and ended up doing various things.

If I had to advise my children I'd advise them to be good at (but unqualified) in lots of different things, study a professional discipline at a good university, with no intention of joining the profession, meet the person who they'd like to marry

(but not necessarily marry them)

live quite a bit

and then find out what they'd better do to make a living...

I'd totally agree with that collumn.

I was lucky enough to know what I wanted to do from the age of 13. It was just a case of knowing what I needed to do and getting there. Most people I know didn't know as a teenager what they wanted to do. They just followed their strengths and interests. They've ended up doing all sorts of things they might not have considered at 16 or 18.

I think I'd add that circumstances you can't control come into play a lot as well. Illness/disability has no respect for class or ambition. Despite being as middle class as they come and knowing what I wanted to do I've ended up doing something completely different. And probably not something I would have chosen to end up doing.

It's not just about grades but emulating what they see in terms of everyday behaviour and attitude ....move your child ...to private it that's what it takes and you can afford it ....don't take the chance as your instincts are probably right. You can have very ambitious. clever poor children who get onto grammar school so not it's not all about socioeconomics but the behaviour I would be worried about. Primary years are so formative.