All this angst about summer borns. Can someone tell me why we don't just go over to the Scottish admission system?

[Worriedthistimearound]

On the other thread there seems to be lots of people saying its not ideal but what can you do.
Well, maybe someone can tell me why we don't move over to what seems to me like a far more sensible system. DH is Scottish and we know the parents with children in the system and there is nowhere near the same level of anxiety up there.

Basically, it would seem that the cut off is the end of February rather than the end of August for children starting that autumn (well aug in Scotland) therefore, the youngest child starting school in that year group would be at least 4.5 as they turned 4 no later than end of feb. unlike here where a child could theoretically turn 4 on the 31/8 and start school the next day.

I know parents have more choice to defer up there too but that aside the timings seem so much more sensible. I also know that in England the child doesn't legally need to start until the term after they turn 5 but that's no solution if your child misses a whole year if reception.

So, what's stopping us saying ok, for 2017 admissions we're moving over to this new system so that all children will be more ready for school?

worried IMO and IME there are indeed huge differences between the various degrees of readiness of small children for formal learning. Very few of these differences are directly related to their date of birth although many of them may be indirectly related (e.g. always being treated as 'the youngest', low expectations becoming self fulfilling prophecies etc).

worried both my DDs were pulled out of reception to do reading and maths with older years, DS wasn't (and he is the earliest born of the 3, although still summer born) although he was in the 'do proper stuff' group rather than the 'no formal stuff yet' group.

New there have been baby music classes for a long time! someone tried to persuade me to send my now 15 YO DD1 to suzuki violin when she was about 3. I said no though, I'm a wind instrument player and I didn't want the hassle of strings in our lives. I slightly regret it now - but only slightly.

They did phonics at my DCs nursery and my oldest is, as I said, 15 years old. So it's not a new thing.

Interesting about phonics in nirsery in England. In most nurserys inScotland they do not do phonics at all, and oir children get up to 2 years of nursery.

I would have hated my dc doing phonics and similar formal learning in nursery.

metebelis3, I think the staggered start only disadvantages children when the others have started learning. If they spent reception playing it wouldn't be a problem.

My DC2 was born first week of September. She is exceptionally bright, considered gifted by school, yet there is no way I wish she could have started school the year before even though she would have if she'd been born 4days earlier. I was very pleased she got to spend another year in her informal nursery.

Well my late august born is REALLY struggling with the social side. Not so much with the academic side of reception (given that she's been reading since she was two) but she only potty trained at 3.5, she has a speech delay and she is awful at interacting with other children, sitting still and following verbal instructions. But we were told that if we deferred her, she would have to go straight from Nursery class to Y1, which would not have helped in the slightest. at least in reception she's developing the ability to cope with the extra demands that y1 will place on her. We've got a sneaky plan that if she's still struggling next term we're going to ask if she can repeat reception year. Fingers crossed.

Yes, ha! I have resisted all suggestions for her to have lessons with older year groups. Maybe I'm an old killjoy but I think she's doing fine. She will still be as bright even if she is exposed to things later.

I disagree that reception is informal. My dd has targets to reach regarding her reading, writing and numeracy. We have been given areas to practice so that she gets 'exceeding' at the end of reception. Seems relatively formal to me - she is not learning all of this through play. Reception so far has been miles different to nursery.

Anyway, I'm scottish and was born in February and so was the youngest in my year. My dd is a June birthday and so one of the youngest in her year (England). As it is, she has settled fine. I think the option to defer should be available in England so that kids who are not ready can start reception rather than having to go into year 1.

It was very gentle and sometimes part time

It still should be gentle and you do have the option of requesting that your child attend part time.

I think tasks need to be given appropriately for every child regardless of age. But when children are formally assessed their results should be considered against peers of the same age maybe in 3 month blocks? So a score and an age adjusted score. I plan to ask teachers this when my summer DD starts even informally.

FWIW I clearly remember the oldest kids from my primary school, one girl in particular...it was as if 'being the oldest' became her life defining moment. She was a mean manipulative bully who won all the sports contests as she was the biggest and was usually the brightest too. She was like this for as long as I knew her. Complete PITA. I remember my mum telling me 'it's because she is the oldest' but it doesn't compute when you are young. I remember the youngest boy too he was very popular but not clever (although he came from a very bright family if his 2 siblings were anything to go by). He spent most of school life being the joker.

It is also an issue in high schools with driving age, going to pubs etc. it creates divides.

Schools need to make it a non issue but I can't see how.

My oldest starts reception next year and there is huge variances locally with what each school does with age and staggering. One school actually starts the summer borns first and everyone is FT after the first half term. Another school keeps everyone the same but all part time until Jan. The HT there told us 'if you lose them in reception you never get them back'. The problem is if course that you don't really get a choice of school and I don't know where DD will go.

It is also deeply unfair that EYFS funding is only available for 3 and 4 year olds. It should either be eligible only in 1 preschool year or 2. It's unfair that older children get up to 2 years and others only 1 year. Unless of course the govt wants to write me a cheque for the unused balance for my summer born .

At her preschool she is a whole 'head' smaller than some of the girls. I'm just planning on making sure she knows the numerical etc basics. But the problem is it's the social stuff which is not teachable really....

I've thought about just entering her in y1, but the problem is who is going to be her peer group if everyone is at school? Plus only a private nursery would take her likely until then if spaces are available.

It's a tough one - my DS is a March birthday so one of the oldest in his year in Scotland. He was absolutely ready a year earlier - both academically and socially. His nursery teachers agreed that had he been a few weeks older they would definitely not have recommended deferral, despite it being a school that deferred most Jan/Feb birthdays. The extra year in nursery was hard for him and he has ended up so far ahead academically that it has been hard to stretch him, (even with the apparently wonderful CfE), and he has been bored a lot of the time. He is now P4 and it's only really in the last year or so that he has been fully engaged at school. While there is an option for deferral for Jan-Feb birthdays, and also for Aug-Dec birthdays with the support of the nursery, there is no option for early entry for Mar-Aug birthdays (certainly in our council area) so it seems a little unfair. I know of children who have been deferred who could have easily coped (and done well) going into school a year earlier, and those who haven't been deferred who probably would have benefitted from it.

I am an end of May birthday and in NI that made me one of the youngest in the year (cut off is 2nd July), but I was top of my class right the way through school, high achiever at grammar school and got a 2:1 at university. (2 marks off a 1st). Sometimes birthday will make a difference, but there are also so many other factors at play and I think it is risky to think that changing to another system will solve a lot of problems - it might solve some, but you will still get children in a year group not best suited to them, will get 'young' children who are high achievers and 'older' children who don't excel.

I disagree that reception is informal

EYFS specifically states, "Each area of learning and development must be implemented through planned, purposeful play and through a mix of adult-led and child-initiated activity... Children learn by leading their own play, and by taking part in play which is guided by adults."

It sounds to me like your school is not following the EYFS curriculum properly.

Why did we move away from staggered starts? My birthday is in march and I started school in the jan term ie the term before I was 5...

My brother's birthday is May, and he therefore only had one, short term in reception, in a reception class of thirty. My birthday's in December, so I started school in the September, and had a term of being in a reception class with only ten people in it then another term with only twenty. It's hard to see how that's not beneficial to those who are older.

DS2 would have been seriously unimpressed if someone had told him that because his birthday falls after February (he is end of April) he should wait another year.
He isn't the youngest in the year - 4 years 4 months at starting- but he is most certainly not disadvantaged. He was more than ready for school.
There perhaps should be some flexibility around deferring for those parents that really feel their summer babies will struggle but that is by no means all summer children.
Also as I understand it I the Scottish system the anxiety isn't around summer borns who become some of the oldest in the year, but around winter borns who are the new youngest in the year.
Similarly DS1, one of the oldest in his year could have done with going to school a year early. He now spends all his time working with theme t year up and accessing the year 2 curriculum. No flexibility there either.

Ditto staggered starts. DS2 needed to be at school in Sept not summer term, and surely staggered starts just further disadvantage summer children.

In theory it should all be learning through play but that's simply not the case in practice. They do have formal learning all sat on the carpet. And the brighter older ones are pushed even more.

I teach in Scotland and there is one disadvantage only, that I can see. Pupils often sit exams at the end of S4 (were Standard Grades, that is now changing) and are 15.5. They can't leave until they are 16 so are stuck at school until Christmas but with no real intention of doing very much. I teach at a completely lovely school and we have no problems at all. However, colleagues elsewhere report that the "Christmas Leavers" are often troublesome, poorly motivated and have no chance of getting anything more than a few units as there are no exams / retakes in November / January here.

Perhaps my idea of informal is different to the dfe's! I see what I've been asked to concentrate on with my dd as 'formal'.

What I mean is my dd has a learning plan and targets to reach - that seems pretty formal to me.

worried totally agree, I was told reception was "all play". My dd is definitely being pushed a bit as they reckon she's capable. Some of it seems formal learning to me but I'm not an education expert at all.

Could they not break the classes up by age per intake?? Ie oldest 30 in one class and then next oldest in another clad etc.

Could they not break the classes up by age per intake?? Ie oldest 30 in one class and then next oldest in another clad etc.

How does that work in one form intake schools, of which there are a lot? And if you have two reception teachers, the most logical thing would be that for the first half the the year, the older pupils are taught in two half-size classes, and then in the second half of the year, the olders are in a full-size class and the youngers are in a full-size class. That's still a massive advantage to the olders, yes?

Crazy That would be crazy!

My summer born (July) is desperate to start school- if I had the option to defer I wouldn't. She's ready and if I see any signs of tiredness, reluctance to do reading at home or whatever I'll make allowances for her. I think teachers probably make some allowances too.

Agree that is seems daft that the most advantaged (autumn born) get a preschool year and an antepreschool year and the least advantaged get half as much. Isn't exactly going to level the playing field, is it?

Another thing that Scotland does better.