CAT results & 11+ / G&T - what should I ask at meeting with HT?

[FourArms]

Also posted in G&T :)

Just got DS1's (age 9) CAT results.

Standard age scores:
Verbal - 129
Quantitative - 127
Non-verbal - 103
Overall mean - 120

Predicted L5b for all subjects at KS2. Reading age of 14/15.

I have a meeting booked with his HT tomorrow. Any thoughts on what to discuss?

He's Y5 and we live in an area with lots of grammar schools.

He had a rubbish year last year in terms of progress (pg teacher who had lots of time off before mat leave then cover teachers before getting a permanent teacher for last term). I suspect this year may not be challenging him either

I'm a teacher, but secondary so unfamiliar with primary education.

Isn't 5b at end of ks2 pretty common? Dd is beginning of y5 in special measures school and is pretty much l5.

Sorry. Didn't mean to be negative. No idea what the cats mean.

why do you have a meeting booked with HT?

I find the gap between the verbal and the non-verbal scores interesting. Certainly if the local test involves NVR for 11+, then that part of it will need a lot of work (CATs, if I recall correctly, have 100 as 'average', so while the verbal score is high, the NVR would not normally label him as grammar material unless you are in the kind of area where25% go to grammars, as in Kent). If you're in a 'VR only' county, then that relative weakness will be less important.

5b for end KS2 is 'higher than average', but not exceptional - with the new L6 tests, an increasing number of children are being reported as L6 for Maths in particular. If a comparison is useful, DD is currently on track for a full set of L6s (the reading one is the least likely as the test is HARD), and she passed without coaching for our local 'medium selectives', but missed the pass mark for the 'supersuperselective'. She is probably on the G&T register, but she's not the brightest in her cohort at her school.

(You will also want to find out how the reading age is calculated. If it's a 'read unrelated words off a page' test, then it doesn't tell you very much - bright children, or even just good decoders, can reach the maximum reading age in such tests at Y1/ Y2 level. Both DS and DD, who are bright but not exceptional, had such scores reported in KS1)

Not sure where the 5b comes from TBH.

He got a 4b in writing, 5c in reading and 3a for maths at the end of Y4. I'd like him to achieve a L6 for maths in Y6 - he's capable of it (did some maths work & SATs papers with him last summer to help him maintain his progress over the holiday).

Not sure yet what his 11+ will involve - we're in a county where they may change over to CEM for next years intake.

Reading age probably fairly accurate - he's a big reader and has been for a few years. Reads a wide variety of texts.

He says he had no idea what to do with NVR questions, hoping familiarity might help.

Meeting booked as a follow up from last year when I started to realise he'd made negative progress in Y4. Have a good working relationship with HT.

NC levels are irrelevant.What county are you in? You need to look up what they test at 11+.
IME VR and NVR scores tend to be very high in Y3 and Y4 many decent ones getting near and then drop in Y5 and 6

"Isn't 5b at end of ks2 pretty common?"

Only on Mumsnet!!

I would want to know about the big gap between verbal and non verbal- that's pretty unusual.

You need to find out what the 11+ is made up of in your area- it varies a lot. And ask what the plan is to keep his nose to the grindstone this year.

And 3a to 6 is quit a big jump- why do you want him to get a level 6 in maths?

I too would be curious about the nvr, especially as the quantitative is so high.

I think initgrands comments are interesting about the yr 3 and 4 scores tending to be high and then dropping in yrs 5 and 6. As these tests are standardised across all test takers, then I do not see how that could be. Unless initgrand is in a non-grammar area and all the tutoring that goes on for 11+ and indies means that the scores of many children are higher in yrs 5 and 6. If that were the case, in areas where non of this tutoring goes on then it could look like the scores have dropped but I would not have thought there could be large drops?

I don't know why that is the case anecessaryevil. We are in a grammar area and the children in KS2 are tested once a year on VR and NVR with a paper written for theri year group.It is quite common to have 1 0r 2 in a typical year group of 7 children getting full marks in Y3, but never heard of it in Y5 and 6.
It has to be to do with levelling the difficulty of the papers I think.

DD1 has just entered yr5 and everyone's SATS targets have dropped. she is now apparently working towards level 4 in maths and literacy despite having received a 4c in literacy in yr3 and a 4a in both maths & literacy in yr4!
apparently it is because the levels in yr5 are re-standardised or something. crazy system though we've been told "don't worry, don't get hung up on levels we predict your dd will be a level 5 if not 6 in the yr6 SATS."

pointless.

oh and then in secondary school they re-set most of them again, so those reaching high level 5s/6s in yr 6 SATS will probably be on target for level 5s again.

what a nonsense.

Am a little confused. Are you meeting HT because you are worried about his NVR? Or because school is causing him to underachieve for the ability you believe he has?

Amid, are you sure it's not a cynical way to get a better grade in the next Ofsted?

Sorry, just re-read thread properly. Hope you get some answers and a plan.

Crikey aidaiwish, what is going on?!! To be working towards a l4 when she was a level 4a a year ago sounds strange. But then to say that she will be a (presumably strong l5 or l6), in less than 18 months, when 'she is working towards a 4' is even stranger!

i know!!!
she's not the only one, the high achievers seem to have been re-levelled. apparently a level 4 in yr3 or yr4 is not the same as a level 4 in yr 5 or 6
tbh i don't care, i'm going for selective indie secondaries and as long as her tutor says she's on track for getting in, the whole school and SATS thing, well "meh".

re Ofsted, that did enter my thinking BUT doesn't ofsted just look at the levels gained between SATS at yr2 and SATS at yr6. I don't think they look year to year.

sorry back to the OP, my points were just to show that the levels they give out yr3,4,5 are a nonsense.
what did he get in yr2, did your school do SATS?
many of the private schools near me have dropped NVR, i have been asking why, apparently they say it is a coached test and tells you nothing. So it is clearly practice practice and familiarity. you can work on it unless he just doesn't get it at all (like my DD2).
I'd be asking the other scores in maths end of yr4. 3a would be below average in my school, certainly not on track for level 6. but as schools differ so much, i would focus on that.

Saw the HT. She feels NVR is the measure of true ability and the fact he's achieving more than that for VR & Q means the school are doing well in getting him to achieve beyond ability. Doesn't seem to feel VR and Q result is anything special though?

Our 11+ is currently all VR, but :( may change to CEM for DS1's cohort.

We've now booked a tutor (possibly pointless as her experience is VR which is DS1's strength) and I've bought lots of Bond books to try and help him at home too.

Any tips for getting speed up on times tables? Have just downloaded squeeble.

Y2 SATs lower than many in school of similar ability - he sat them at a primary school (who kept them low to show VA in KS2) and then moved to a Junior school (KS1 SATs results inflated by separate Infant school). DS2, who seems to me much weaker than DS1 has far far higher KS1 SATs results.

I've found the Percy Parker CD fantastic for DD2 learning times tables.
then just practice practice practice
squeebles is good or make up worksheets with 36 questions and time them. They need to get really fast.

Don't get too focused on these levels, they are just a political football.

INterestingly my HT said that about EPIPS (whatever it is i don't know, think it is a mix of VR and NVR). apparently it shows their true intelligence and she says many of "her" children do better than they should vs their EPIPS because the school is so fantastic. DD1 however underperforms... i wish i had pulled her up on that, only thought of it after the moment had passed!

Are you in Glos? They are changing their 11+ next year, this year was the last for VR. Have a look on the Glos section of elevenplusexams, very helpful.

As a matter of interest for comparison, DS2 did the 11+ last year, no tutoring, just practice at home with me. In the Y5 CATS he got 135 quantative, 127 verbal and 136 NV and passed for a Gloucester Grammar, but nowhere near Pates standard.

He got 5C English and 6C Maths in his Y6 SATs.

That's really interesting thanks SarahJane. Did he go to a grammar in the end?

Thanks for the recommedations amidaiwish - haven't heard of EPIPS, will look that up.

Checked up on end of Y4 levels - they were actually 5C for reading, 4B for writing and 4A for maths. So going by 4 sub-levels progress he should hit high level 5 or level 6 for everything by the end of Y6.