can't be 'polite' and good any longer....

[swallowedAfly]

ds goes to a village primary with all the subsequent over-reliance on parents wealth, education, time, etc. re: assuming sahms are the norm, money is plentiful for fanciful trips and activities, we all know how to sew up costumes at the drop of a hat etc.

that's fine. i chose to live here. however....

homework is way over the top in terms of quantity and right from day one of school. one part of homework (there is loads) is the 'learning log' which is pretended to be something children could do indepndently and consolidates learning. except in reality it is not, by a long shot.

i've put up with it and put up with and felt enslaven to doing it until today when i've had enough. this week for ds (6yo and one of the most able in his year) it says, "show me what you've learned about number bonds up to 20 and what patterns you can see". then there's a blank page.

i don't know why (because this is far from the worst that's come home) but today i've had enough and found myself writing on the page that i have no idea what the learning objective is, what outcomes they're hoping for or how the hell they see this as differentiated. i've also asked how they think a parent with numeracy or literacy problems would tackle this task and whether they would actually set this as a task in class to 6yos and expect a meaningful outcome.

there is no context, no structure, no literacy support, no prompts nothing. same as ever. sometimes the tasks don't even relate to anything they've been learning.

am i totally unreasonable or would you after a year or so be fed up too? i am (if it's not obvious) an ex teacher and i know what education is supposed to be about and this is not it. homework should be meaningful. how could a 6yo read that question and face a blank page and do something a teacher could look at and assess to see what they've learnt? they couldn't.

on top of this learning log (given on a friday and expected in by tuesday) daily reading and signing of reading book is expected plus other bits and bobs. he's 6! he's been getting this since 5 at a point where some kids couldn't even write let alone face a blank page and an open ended task and produce something yet they'd get in trouble if they didn't. this is just a test of parents surely? and an unfair one given it assumes knowledge and literacy that some parents won't have?

sorry for long random rant but help! i'm not playing this game anymore and i'm ready to speak up. it's a joke.

Actually I didn't start by telling you that a Learning Logs were lovely. I tried to ex

Agree with op.

Sounds very lazy to be honest.

Actually I didn't try to tell you Learning Logs were lovely. I tried to explain their purpose and use as you clearly didn't know yourself. You are not familiar with them or with their uses. In school where they are used, the children know exactly what to do. Same with number bonds. A good point was made up thread about you not knowing if concrete materials etc were sent home with those who couldn't manage the writing. Every child may have the same sticker but that does not mean that the task was not accessible to them.

Secondly, you commented about your son no longer being in the top spelling group and I asked directly about that. You didn't bother replying either.

While it may be bad form that others have brought in another thread, it is also pretty bad form to ignore posters who are explaining things to you, just because they are not what you want to hear.

On a separate note as thread has gone now, I had parents' nights last week and went through the audited provision and explained how each child was using their hours. No 1:1 provision this year. However all getting above audited hours as TA in class a lot and we are doing a lot of extra 1:1 type activities. Have never done this before but hope it might reassure anyone who is as anxious as many parents on 1:1 thread were.

I think that parents are needed for the repetition and training in basic activities such as learning to read, learning number facts, spellings etc but that parental involvement is a necessary evil not a goal per se.

you are explaining what happens in your school and assuming it is what happens in mine and i'm just too thick to see it. i'm not sure how many times i could tell you that that isn't how it is in this context and yes i have checked so i've given up doing so.

bonsoir - i think what's sad is that they always apply the worst case scenario to all. re: some parents don't bother to talk to their children or help them in any way ergo we'll set tons of tasks for all parents and all children regardless of whether that is the case for them or not. the obvious reality being those parents who won't or can't still won't do it or won't be able to do it anyway but all those who can and do will be forced to do it in a tick box type fashion that is probably less effective than they would have been doing it themselves left to it.

when i talked to ds' teacher last year this is basically what he saw as the rationale for much of what they send home.

it's like the whole constant bombarding of lectures/letters/info on for example parking outside school - reality is it's a few parents who don't give a fuck and keep doing it so just talk to those parents ffs instead of wasting paper and energy and the patience of us all when all of that won't effect the people concerned anyway. parking is a silly example but you know what i mean i hope.

or for example the blanket ban on holidays in school time because it effects the learning of 'some' children and 'some' parents do it really regularly.

reality is if your child is streets ahead and you are actively educating them yourself and will continue to do so on holiday (particularly when you're going somewhere with fantastic, interesting cultural experiences etc) and they have 100% attendance usually then there is zero indication that it would harm them and plenty of indication otherwise.

but we all must be treated like the worst case scenario.

'oh one more thing - no i didn't feel yuk over 'a bit of homework' (thanks for minimising my feelings and telling me i'm not allowed to have them btw) i felt yuk over a teacher basically telling me that the school doesn't give a fuck about kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, doesn't give a fuck about differentiation and thinks kids are destined to be limited by their parents socio-economic status'

Switch socio-economic status for 'disability' and you have what parents of children with SN have every day.

I don't mean to minimise your concerns about homework, but a bit of sloppy, arrogantly set homework doesn't have anywhere NEAR the disastrous consequences for a child's life chances than reallocated support awarded by experts and removed by arrogant teachers.

I too am wondering if through your frustration you have any newfound empathy with parents of children with Special Needs and would like to rethink your accusation that their wanting their statement fulfilled is selfish.

I think as a nation we should be really clear as to what we want our schools to provide.

In my view (and comparing it to other countries, like my home one), the school is expected to be a social service rather than an educational establishment and in such guise is losing its educational contribution whilst perhaps acting more as a nanny for the children in its care.

I don't want my children to be fed for free, lectured about family values, relationships, what to eat and not to eat, when to go on holiday or not, what to wear, etc...I just want for my child to go to school to learn to read, write, learn about science, history and geography, or any other academic subject which is deemed suitable and relevant. Leave all the rest to me, as the parent please!

This is how I was educated and how I see education still working in many other countries, I think in the UK the government has tried to use schools as a social service, this isn't effective and it does affect negatively everyone else. Leave the social workers to cover the rest.

No I didn't think you were too thick to understand although I'm not so sure. I replied initially way up thread when you were complaining simply about the homework and the fact your son was no longer in the top spelling group. As you kept repeating similar things I presumed you hadn't understood the task or the reasons behind it. Unless you have spoken to every single parent in the class, double checked the oral information given to every child and parent then actually no, you don't know that everyone is set an identical task or given the same support. It's also worth remembering that parents may not want to disclose additional support given to someone in the playground as it's really none of your business.

musicalfamily - totally agree

musicalfamily I sort of agree with you but I don't think it is quite as simple as that because I also agree with inclusion.

There are some very reasonable adjustments that can be made for children with SN which can make the curriculum much more accessible. It is just added differentiation.

Differentiation is an important part of teaching, the content should be pitched at a child's own level. Teachers should be differentiating anyway. I think some added flexibility on top of this is called for generally, it would be advantageous to all children. For example I don't know who has decided a rigid system of rewards and sanctions are the best tool for motivating all children to learn. I would have thought instilling a subject for its own merits is more valid in terms of motivation (in fact read some research in New Scientist the other year that seemed to prove this point).

Also children start school at a very young age, in this country, they need nurturing and schools have a very definite Duty of Care towards them.

I don't know whether these 'soft skills' would fall inside the bracket of 'social service' but I think they are a very important part of Education.

Where I would draw the line is where schools attempt to parent the parents and dictate too much as to what they do outside of school and how they care for their children regardless of their freedom of choice (eg over zealous lunch box police). This can be incredibly patronising.

^ that should read ' a love of a subject for its own merits'

I also agree entirely with musical family - the primary school my DS attends apparent belief that they know what's best in every facet of our life and think they can interfere and instruct me how to speak to and teach my children is patronising and supremely arrogant. I am better educated than any of them (including being a fellow of the Higher education academy alongside a PhD in my own subject).

They sent me a questionnaire last year and one of the questions was 'when do you and your child do their homework?'

my answer: 'I have never and will never do my child's homework - I teach my children to take responsibility for their own learning and work and not to think it is acceptable for someone else to do it for them. Passing someone else's work off as your own is plagiarism and is cheating'

Might seem a bit harsh for primary but the number of students I see coming to university who still don't get and have clearly no idea how to think for themselves is frightening. I suspect too much spoon feeding by teachers and parents!

And yes, as swallowedafly says, if I want to take my child out of school because I am working abroad or to travel I will do so - they can fine me and try to prove in court that I am damaging/don't care about my children's education. There won't be a shred of evidence for it and plenty to disprove it. I am not going to let the government dictate what experiences my children can have in life just because it doesn't appear on their narrow and short-sighted list of acceptable/exceptional circumstances. My colleagues and I have always taken our children with us when working abroad for short periods - the kids still get into Oxford and Cambridge or wherever they choose. Does them no harm at all in the long run.

agree with much of what people have added (still ignoring the false comparisons and dig business).

spent the afternoon with a parent after dropping our children off at a party - went for a pint and a chat and discussed this with her. the one time her, as she describes her, middle of the road daughter got a head teachers award was when they happened to be going to london on the weekend of 'the great fire of london' homework being set. so they took pictures, printed them out and glued them in for her. basically her parents had the money, the time, the colour printer and etc to do this and their child was given a special award for their parents happening to be in london, happening to have a colour printer and happening to luckily happen to be going to london that weekend anyway.

basically the parents got a head teacher award.

next to no writing from the child or any links to what they'd done in school and the child's efforts had never been rewarded before or since despite the fact that actually this was the 'learning log' piece that they'd made the least effort for.

says it all really imo.

and just to clarify and repeat what has already been said - every single child gets the same homework in that year group, the same school input and is viewed the same - the teacher confirmed it, the parents i've spoken to confirm it and the exhibiting of the learning logs at every parent's evening confirms it.

of course their may be a top secret, no one knows, differentiation process that they actively deny taking place but that would be very strange given ofsted has basically warned them that they'll fail next time unless they address the fact that they're cruising on an easy intake and doing ok despite the fact they're shit at diffentiation and adding very little value and that this is not good enough.

the false analogy/comparison/whatever you want to cal it here is the strange assumption that somehow either you think teachers are infallible, education is perfect, there is nothing to complain about or you agree with every criticism ever made on here about teachers and school.

as i say i believe that's an entirely false premise.

there is nothing to justify here - the fact i find fault with 'something' and in a particular context doesn't mean i'm supposed to agree with every single thing critics of education say.

i've never said schools are perfect and infallible. in fact i've criticised schools and their culture and explained why i left teaching after finding the culture of it (here in this county) massively disturbing and destructive.

it's not you think teachers and schools are shit and agree with everything everyone says against them OR you think they're perfect and can't criticise anything ever. sorry but it's beyond infantile to do what some are trying to do here.

"I think in the UK the government has tried to use schools as a social service, this isn't effective and it does affect negatively everyone else."

I think that it can be very difficult for teachers in some schools NOT to become involved with the 'outside school' lives of our pupils, because those lives have such a massive impact on in-school attainment and behaviour. If we want to use education to iron out some of the inequalities (here I am with swallowedafly, as I passionately believe that it is critical that rather than resigning ourselves to 'outcome being determined by background', we aim for the best possible outcome for every child regardless of background') then we have to be aware of the issues that such inequalities cause - and in some cases a school is in the best position to address the issues.

For example, a school that sees a hungry child every day can, if they know that they have had no breakfast, provide some (AND, not OR collect that info for social services) as well as ensure that the child gets the school lunch they are entitled to by helping an illiterate parent fill in the relevant form. They can lend a child with no jumper one from the secondhand box. They can provide 'homework clubs' accessible to children who they are aware have no working space at home. To address inequalities and make children's attainment independent of background, schools and social services have to work together, not set up strict demarcation lines.

OTOH, in other schools there is virtually no involvement with 'outside school' lives of pupils - in my new job I have not filled in a single 'child of concern' form for the Designated Person in charge of safeguarding (who then passed relevant info to Social Services - each incident on its own was tiny, not a 'ring SS' event, but the amassed evidence was critical in driving interventions) - in my last school I filled in at least 1 most weeks

@Mytholmroyd "the kids still get into Oxford and Cambridge or wherever they choose. Does them no harm at all in the long run."

So that's the academic elite sorted, but what's the rule for the other half-million children in any given year?

My DD is very bright, self-motivated, determined, Good Stuff[tm] happens on her initiative, regardless of homework, she survived that mediocre teacher who ignored her for two years etc. But I'm very conscious that we're lucky and that other children have a greater dependency on school and help at home.

Mytholmroyd, FWIW I feel exactly the same way about my family life. In the previous primary school we used, I saw teachers taking snow days when the rest of the city was working just fine, endless bake sales to raise money for goodness knows what while children's lunch boxes were policed, frequent nasty letters being sent home demanding payments for things when in fact the school frequently lost payments, teachers taking masses of sick leave and children doing day after day colouring worksheets whilst supervised by supply teachers, but parents taking kids overseas while they worked triggering even more nasty letters, an unofficial means testing system put in place so that we were charged double for trips while half the class paid nothing, based on the teachers' personal impressions of what our income might be from the way we walked and dressed, etc (culminated in them trying to charge us £300 for 3 nights in dormitory accommodation 20 miles up the road, at which point I refused, having rumbled what was going on), and masses of basic learning coming home while the school sat them all in circles and got them to talk about their 'feelings'.

My husband commented that 'whenever I come in to see the teachers I feel like a naughty schoolchild myself' and I think that summed it up. They were absolutely incapable of having an adult to adult interaction about anything. Or teaching children properly, who weren't able to divine what they were supposed to be doing from the ether.

It all set our children a terrible example. At that point we snapped and pulled our youngest out - he was 8 and could barely write his name. A month later he was able to write fluently after the next nearest school sorted him out nicely, no problem. His reading age shot up about 3 years in a few months. I shudder to think how utterly bored and frustrated he must have been in the first school. And they are completely smug and think they are wonderful and lecture everyone on how brilliant they are.

So I do see where the OP is coming from.

When I read your OP, Swallowedafly, I did wonder if you were talking about the school my youngest two children are at.

My son gets a lot of homework and tbh I think there is too much which we are expected to do with him plus reading, spellings, signing of books (not onerous I admit) and extra things thrown in randomly.

boffin i'm really grateful for your presence on this thread and your common sense approach. it may be an exaggeration but i SO identify with your depiction of the school sitting round in circles talking about feelings whilst parents are expected to teach them to read and write with shame being the pressure to drive them. and god yes to the total incapacity to have an adult to adult conversation or interaction.

i am so not good with parent/child interaction - i'm an adult, not a child and as arrogant as this no doubt sounds i'm more educated and qualified than you anyway so the me and my 'white coat/BEd/whatever' thing doesn't hold sway and even if i wasn't more educated i wouldn't buy this bs power trip.

my boss (after talking to other heads in the town, reading up on the school, reading ofsted report, asking behind scenes etc) is saying 'change school'. i, after reading this stuff myself, applying my own experiences there so far, etc am thinking you are going to fail your next inspection and your arrogant little complacent 1952 time warp world is going to crash round your ears.

i think realistically if i don't get the job i'm interviewing and presenting for later this month (which would mean a move to the other side of the country making this a non issue for us) then i'm going to have to look at changing schools locally. whilst we're in a one school village as my boss pointed out i walk past two other schools on my way to work that may not have the stone walls, middle class yummy, curb appeal but actually have really good reports from ofsted and are apparently spoken of very highly by local heads.

oh and if we're onto general moaning re: snow days, endless sick leave, etc the 'school opens at x time' but hey we might not fucking bother opening the doors till 10 minutes after that business does piss me off. i realise they think they're doing the world a favour by doing their jobs but come on! people have jobs to get to - banks need to open, trains need to run, businesses need to man the phones etc. the world can't grind to halt because you all got chatting in the staff room and what the heck it's not like we're going to lose any customers by opening ten minutes late.

But piqueaboo my kids are not all academic elite - if you had read my previous posts you would know one of my four kids didn't read until 8.

Also, my posts are about what happens OUTSIDE school. In school, the teachers are in charge, out of school I am.

As I have said up thread, I disagree entirely with homework being a necessary or expected part of school especially primary. Children should be taught in school because otherwise you disadvantage the children whose parents can't or won't help them with their homework. That us wrong. I won't do it on principle ( and yes, I teach my children other stuff) but other children are not so lucky. Parents should not be doing homework.

I also feel very uneasy about parents being made to feel that they have to do this or they are letting their children down. Their is no educational research that I am aware of that supports the use of homework.

I want the teachers to teach - give the kids the benefit of their attention and time in class - not marking or setting homework. I know lots do it outside of school hours but they should be. They should be released from the homework tyranny!

Sorry if it's a rant - I support teachers in school just don't like how it's spilled over into the rest of our lives

It's worse for me, I think, as they all know I'm an educationalist so I often have to bite my tongue, as do my colleagues, BUT in a good school it's comparatively rare I have to do this, I find. And in these good schools I notice that all the children achieve well, as they are seen as individuals, and the staff spends a lot of time working out what makes them tick and how to move them on, whether they are the top 10%, the bottom 10% or the kids in the middle. And that's what schools are supposed to do. Not dish out random work and punish the kids who can't cope with that as a system. Ofsted are doing their best to challenge this but ultimately the way forwards is to promote inclusion and accountability amongst schools on professional grounds, not because Ofsted is telling schools to do this. And it takes time.

and on the general moan business - how come trains can run, business' can open, the world can continue just fine but you get to close because 2cm of snow has fallen?