How to move on from spelling phonetically?

[LynetteScavo]

Is reading lots the answer? And if so, what do you do with a child who is a reluctant reader?

What's your problem with laughter and slaughter mathanxiety?
My 5 year olds would tell you that in English sounds can have more than one spelling and a spelling can be more than one sound and you try the common one first the the alternatives ...it's very simple (and systematic).

Blueberry
So for him it's practice and practice, whereas my other son will write words such as 'people' and 'because' and 'Wednesday' correctly on his own because he has read them and remembers.
That sums up perfectly the difference between spellers who are lucky to be born with a good visual memory and the rest. I used to be amazed how easily our daughter could remember the correct spellings, no matter how daft they were, without having to put any effort into it. Our son then brought us down to earth with a bump.

Having learned to write several other languages and having also analysed the spellings of the 7,000 most used English words, I am absolutely certain that learning to spell as well as to read English could easily be made more readily accessible to ordinary mortals - not just those who were born lucky.

With lots of practice, most reasonably bright people get there in the end, but to me its seems silly to leave an essential life skill so hard to learn when much of the dross imposed on English spelling by stupid scribes, printers and dictionary makers could so easily be removed.

Sorry about the little rant, but I get really cross that English spelling makes the lives of so many children so very much harder than need be.

There is no problem involving Irish accents and spelling, or any other accent and spelling. (I know I have stated upthread that accent has no bearing on the issue).

The problem lies with the serious limitations of phonics when it comes to teaching spelling.

My 5 year olds would tell you that in English sounds can have more than one spelling and a spelling can be more than one sound and you try the common one first the the alternatives ...it's very simple (and systematic)
-- but it has nothing to do with phonics Mrz, if two words spelled almost identically have different pronunciations. Or if one word can have different pronunciations depending on context (read/read). You are teaching a very meticulous spelling course.

Of course it is to do with phonics ... words are made up of sounds and the way those sounds are represented in writing IS phonics

But Mrz you say " in English sounds can have more than one spelling and a spelling can be more than one sound and you try the common one first the the alternatives .."

That works extremely well for reading, apart from the very occasional word like "read" which has a different sound and meaning according to whether it is past or present.

But it doesn't actually work so well for spelling, where e.g. the sound of the words "hair" and "hare" is identical in most accents. (and it could also be spelled "here" like in "there")

There comes a point when you just have to know the correct spelling.

And the question is what is the best way to learn that? I'd suggest all the following:

Learn to read through phonics
Lots of reading
Learning the roots of words (and the rules in the root languages)
Tricks and mnemonics, such as Here and There look the same although they don't sound the same.
Sounding the silent letters in your head (eg Wed nes day)

Spelling lists and tests?? Many teachers say they don't translate into using the correct spelling in written work.

Correcting spellings in written work? But not too much to stifle enthusiasm.

I feel as though the argument for phonics for teaching reading has been researched and thoroughly proven.

Now we need similar research on teaching of spelling.

I think the only way to teach spelling is through 'spaced repetition' where you learn / test a word over and over, but with longer and longer gaps between sessions.

eg test word on Day 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 etc.

However it's clearly an enormous amount of work to do this and not able to be done in class, as it has to be done per pupil. (If a child gets a word wrong on day 5, then they have to back to day 1....)

Spaced repetition does have research to back it as an effective way to learn stuff.

Has anyone tried Ultimate Spelling?

My 5 year olds would tell you that in English sounds can have more than one spelling and a spelling can be more than one sound and you try the common one first the the alternatives ...it's very simple (and systematic).

I think this is where maybe some school systems are falling down. My DSD is 7, in her fourth year of primary school, and has only just started to understand this. At five, there is no way would she have understood it, because that was not the way she was taught. For instance, my DSD was taught that the letter "y" is a "yeh". I don't think she was ever properly taught in class that the letter y could also sound like "ee" at the end of a word ("-ly", "-ry") or like "eye" (sky, by, my, try, why). Even now, she will tell us that her name is spelled " ull yeh", when her name should be (if using the sounds) " -ly". It appears her teachers, when they were concentrating class time the most on phonics lessons, pretty much replaced alphabet letter names with sound names, and DSD took that to be hard and fast rules about letters. Convincing her that there is any flexibility there has been a bit uphill.

Beanandspud
..is there a 'rule' or a way to help a child to remember when you need a double letter in the middle of the word?
There is for lengthening short (one-syllable) words with short vowels which end with a single consonant (ban, beg, tin, hot, cut) with suffixes which start with a vowel, like –ed, -ing, -en, er:
Ban, banning, begged, begging, beggar, hotter....

The doubling is supposed to keep stressed, short vowels short and distinguish them from long ones:
Caned, caning, deleted, chided, noted, ....

When it comes to root words of more than syllable, doubling is completely unpredictable:
Very – merry, barrow – baron, salad – ballad, annual – animal

In the 7,000 most common English words which I analysed, I found:
423 with doubled consonants (abbey, adder, allergy...)
513 without (agony, amateur, animal...) and
239 with doubles which are unrelated to keeping stressed, short vowels short
(abbreviate, accommodation, afford....)

Consonant doubling in longer words is the very worst English spelling mess.

Yet if doubling was used consistently for keeping stressed short vowels short, it would be easy to apply, and it would help with learning to read less familiar words like 'latent, lateral, famous, famished, ravenous, raven....) just as it does with 'dinner, diner; stammer, stamen; holy, holly'.

It's the area of English spelling which is crying out for tidying up more loudly than any other.
Masha Bell

As a person with a poor visual memory I always read these threads with interest...

Mrz, you refer to 175 common spellings [of the 44 sounds]. This would be great if our most frequently used vocabulary used those 175 common spellings, however I suspect this is not the case. Am I right in thinking that the following words use rare spellings for the sounds we use to say them?

busy - where u spells /i/
bury - where u spells /e/
Britain - where ai spells /u/ (or is that the shwa?)
aunt - where au spells /ar/
island - where is spells /igh/
view - where iew spells /u or yoo/
veil - where ei spells /ai/
heart - where ear spells /ar/
curious - where ur spells /ure/ (I presume "i" for /ee/ is common?)
sew - where ew spells /oa/
afterwards - where ar spells the short /oo/
towards - where ar spells /or/
ancient - where ci spells /ch/

Although this is a thread about spelling if you teach reading through synthetic phonics then spelling is just the other side of the reading coin. These are all words that dd aged 5 has needed to read and are seem like common words that I'd expect to find in KS1 writing.

The spellings, however, seem anything but common. I find the main problem is the vowels, which seem almost entirely interchangeable. As someone who struggles with a deficient visual memory I'd back a plain spellings campaign (do we really need that g in campaign anymore?), rather like the plain English campaign that champions clear written documentation. Of course if us bods with a poor visual memory are in the minority, then we'll just have to continue to lump it (whilst remaining ever grateful for spell checks)!

thegamesafoot
if us bods with a poor visual memory are in the minority, then we'll just have to continue to lump it
Analyses of GCSE script have revealed that nearly 1/2 of 16-year-olds are poor spellers.

As u seem interested in the different ways the 44 English sounds can be spelt, I'll paste in the summary from my research. (The figures in brackets show how many of the 7,000 most used English words which I have analysed use the main/most used spelling - and how many spell it differently. 0 stands for 'no exceptions'.)

1. a: cat – plait, meringue (466 – 3)
2. a-e: plate – wait, weight, straight, great, table dahlia, fete (338 – 69)

-ain: rain – lane, vein, reign, champagne (39 – 19) -ay: play – they, weigh,ballet,cafe, matinee (35 – 20)

1. air: care – hair, bear, aerial, their, there, questionnaire (31-are – 27 other)
2. ar: car – are + (Southern Engl. bath) (138 – 1)
3. au: sauce – caught, bought,always, tall, crawl (44 au – 76 other)

-aw: saw – (0)- but in UK 11-aw + 40 awe, or, four, sore, war

1. b: bed (0)
2. ca/o/u: cat, cot, cut – character, kangaroo, queue (1022 – 33)

cr/cl: crab/ clot – chrome, chlorine (192 – 10) -c: lilac –stomach, anorak (89 – 9) -ck: neck –cheque, rec (62 – 6) k: kite/ kept – chemistry (124 – 7) -k: seek –unique (36 – 5) -sk: risk –disc, mosque (86 – 10) qu: quick – acquire, choir (78 – 4) x: fix – accept, except, exhibit (98 – 15)

1. ch: chest – cello (155 – 1)

-tch: clutch – much (24 – 7) 9 d: dad – add, blonde (1,010 – 3)

10. e: end– head, any, said, Wednesday, friend, leisure,
    leopard, bury (301 – 67)

11. er: her – turn, bird, learn, word, journey (70er – 124)

12. ee: eat– eel, even, ceiling, field, police,people,
    me, key,ski, debris, quay (152ea – 304)
    --y: jolly– trolley, movie, corgi (475 – 39)

13. f: fish– photo, stuff, rough (580 - 44)

14. g: garden– ghastly, guard (171– 28)

15. h: house– who (237 – 4)

16. i: ink– mystery, pretty, sieve, women, busy, build (421 – 53)

17. i-e: bite – might, style, mild, kind, eider, height, climb
    island indict sign (278 – 76)
    -y: my – high,pie, rye, buy, I, eye (17 – 14)

18. j: jam/ jog/ jug (0)
    jelly, jig – gentle, ginger (18 – 20)
    -ge: gorge (0)
    -dg: fidget– digit (29 – 11)

19. l: last– llama (1,945 – 1)
    20: m: mum– dumb, autumn (1,128 – 19)

20. n: nose– knot, gone, gnome, mnemonic (2,312 – 34)

21. -ng: ring (0) 22

22. o: on– cough, sausage, gone(357 – 5)
    want – wont (19 – 1); quarrel– quod (10 -1)

23. o-e: mole – bowl, roll, soul; old – mould
    boast, most, goes, mauve (171 – 100)
    -o: no –toe, dough, sew, cocoa, pharaoh, oh, depot (106 – 59)

24. oi: oil– oyster (29 –1)
    -oy: toy –buoy (12 – 1)

25. oo (long): food– rude, shrewd, move, group, fruit, truth, tomb,
    blue, do, shoe,through, manoeuvre (94 – 108)

26. oo (short): good– would, put, woman, courier (15 -21)

27. or: order– board, court; wart, quart– worn, quorn (188 – 16)
    -ore:more – soar, door, four, war, swore,abhor (23– 17)

    • (14 –aw/awe in UK)

28. ou: out– town (74 – 24);
    -ow: now – plough (11 – 4)

29. p: pin (0)

30. r: rug– rhubarb, write (1,670 – 27)

31. s: sun – centre,scene (138 – 49)
    -ce: face – case; fancy– fantasy (153 – 65)

32. sh: shop – chute, sure, moustache, liquorice (166 – 30)
    -tion: ignition– mission, pension, suspicion,fashion (216 – 81)

33. t: tap, pet – pterodactyl, two, debt (1,398 – 4)
    --te: delicate – democrat (52 – 3)

34. th (sharp): this (0)

35. th (soft): thing (0)

36. u: up– front, some, couple, blood (308 – 68)

37. u-e: cute – you,newt, neutral, suit, beauty, Tuesday, nuclear (137 – 21)
    -ue: cue –few, view,menu (20– 22)

38. v: van (0)
    -ve: have –spiv (116– 3) [80 with surplus –e]
    -v-: river– chivvy (73 – 7) – v/vv after short vowel

39. w: window– which (216 – 31)

40. y: yak– use (31 – 11)

41. z: zip– xylophone (16 – 1)
    -se: rose –froze (85– 33)
    wise– size (UK 31 – 3, US 11 – 22)

42. zh: -si-/-su-: vision, measure – azure (20 – 3)

43. Unstressed, unclear vowel sound (or schwa),
    occurring mainly in 8 endings and 2 prefixes:
    -able: loveable– credible(33 – 17)
    -ccle: bundle (2 consonants + -le for -l) (0)
    -al: vertical– novel, anvil, petrol (200+ – 32)
    -ary: ordinary– machinery, inventory, century,carpentry(37 – 55)
    -en: fasten– abandon, truncheon, orphan, goblin, certain (73 – 132)
    -ence: absence– balance (33 – 26)
    -ent: absent – pleasant (176 – 58)
    -er: father –author, armour, nectar, centre, injure,quota (UK 340, US 346 – 135/129)
    butcher – picture (42 –ure)
    de-: decide – divide (57 – 29)
    in-: indulge – endure (73 – 30)

Consonant doubling rule for showing short, stressed vowels
merry (regular) – very(missing) – serrated(surplus)
(423 - 513 - 239)

I am sorry that this system makes it impossible to copy and paste with formatting for picking out the crucial letters, but I think it's still possible to see which spellings have few excetptions and which have many.

Masha Bell

Or you could just look at something universal about the alphabetic code and not a list which is only specific to Masha.

Alphabetic code

"This would be great if our most frequently used vocabulary used those 175 common spellings, however I suspect this is not the case. Am I right in thinking that the following words use rare spellings for the sounds we use to say them?"

busy - where u spells /i/ fairly common business, minute
bury - where u spells /e/ the letters is a common way to represent the sound /er/ curl, hurt, turn etc
Britain - where ai spells /u/ (or is that the shwa?) (I would class is as a schwa which is the most common vowel sound
aunt - where au spells /ar/ (isn't actually ar in my accent) depending on accent represents the sound /ar or /a/ in aunt and laugh and draught
island - where is spells /igh/
view - where iew spells /u or yoo/
veil - where ei spells /ai/ is a common spelling for the sound /ai/ rein, vein, feint, beige
heart - where ear spells /ar/ hearth hearty less common not unique
curious - where ur spells /ure/ no represents /ue/ fusion, stupid, monument (I presume "i" for /ee/ is common?) iis a common spelling for the sound /ee/ think ski, Ian, chilli, Anita, alias, casino, corgi
sew - where ew spells /oa/ unusual spelling or the sound /oa/
afterwards - where ar spells the short /oo/
towards - where ar spells /or/ war, warm, ward, swarm, wart, dwarf (following the sound /w/
ancient - where ci spells /ch/ common spelling for /sh/ special, precious, social, official, racial, commercial

sorry quick reply if I've missed any I'll get back to you

just noticed afterwards - is the spelling for /or/ the same as toward
view does have an unusual spelling

Just to say it seems people think that phonics is taught in a vacuum which couldn't be further from the truth phonics is taught in the context of words and texts so the idea that a child wouldn't know which way to represent the sound doesn't arise.
Homophones are obviously linked to meaning when taught

All the evidence shows that learning lists of words for tests is an inefficient way to teach/learn spellings.

I agree with Choccyp1g you put it better than I did. 'Phonics' is a dud for teaching spelling. For reading very useful.

Of course it is to do with phonics ... words are made up of sounds and the way those sounds are represented in writing IS phonics
A very, very broad definition of phonics there..
I disagree that phonics is the path to correct spelling -- the way to represent those sounds correctly when writing involves rote learning of spellings and rules, and exercises involving those spellings and rules, and as Choccy says, lots of reading of texts involving those spellings and rules, in hopes of absorbing spellings by osmosis. Because of the way diverse language strands that have become woven together to form the English language, one size 'phonics' does not fit all.

Yes, ar after w for the sound /or/ is indeed common - my mistake!

When I asked if these spellings were common I meant are they listed in the 175 common spellings / sound correspondences? I never suggested that my list contained unique spellings, I was wondering if they were rare spellings (not in the list of 175) for frequently used words. In fact what is rare? Is it, say, 30 words or less using a particular spelling / sound correspondence? I ask because I find it so hard to think of words with a particular spelling pattern unless it is very common.

I'm happy to check this for myself if you've got a handy link to the list of 175 common spellings for the 44 sounds?

With my accent:

bury, sounds like berry, not furry, so doesn't equate to /er/ in curl Perhaps 'au' spelling /ar/ (as it does in my accent) is as common as 'gh' spelling /f/ (i.e. not that commonl)?
Is 'ei' really a common spelling for /ai/ (is it in this 175)?
With my accent I say /c/ure/ee/u/s definitely not /c/ue/r/ee/u/s - or if it helps it doesn't rhyme with queue, which is the /ue/ sound I make for fusion, stupid and monument, it does rhyme with cure though.
Oh I'll add queue to my list where ueue spells /yoo/ (surely a rare spelling)?
Finally I don't say ancient in the same way as special - I agree ci for /sh/ is common BUT I say /ai/n/ch/u/n/t/ not /ai/n/sh/u/n/t/!

Perhaps I just don't speak proper !

Of course this makes me realise how daft it is to think that a straightforward phonics system (or a transparent code where one spelling = say a maximum of 3 sounds) is possible - due to all of the regional accents!

Still there is definitely room for a simpler spelling system (in my idealistic future world where updating all e-books could be achieved at the click of a button ).

Coming back on topic I would just add that despite my worries about just how many rare correspondences there are, I've been thinking about ways to teach dd spellings using phonics (I don't like the idea of random spelling lists at all).

So far my idea is to create sentences with words using a particular rare correspondence (after all many words are, for want of a better expression, phonetically regular and if you've been taught phonics well you don't need to learn to spell them - unlike the rarer correspondences.

So here's an example:

Eight neighing horses pulled a sleigh of weighty neighbours.

Of course if there's a lot of rare correspondences then maybe it would become impractical. Does anything like this exist, and if not is it due to it being impractical, or (for some reason that I've not picked up on) just plain daft?

Spelling lists need not be random.

but eigh isn't rare thegamesafoot ...there are actually very few commonly used words that have unique spellings for sounds.

and yes the spellings you mentioned are included in the 175 figure

oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/ancient

Eight neighing horses pulled a sleigh of weighty neighbours.
Essentially it's a matter of 'if it works, it's fine'.

The irregular spellings have to become liked to particular words in the speller's mind.
With phonically regular spelling systems, they just learn to apply patterns.
For a sound like the English ai sound, for example, they would learn to spell it with
a-e (i.e. an open a, as in hale or halo) in the middle of words (ate, waty, nabours - as in late, maty, baby ...) and
-ay at the end of words (naying, slay - as in play, stay, day...).

Most European languages are not phonetically perfect like Finnish, so pupils need to learn a few exceptions in most of them too, but mostly just a few hundred.
In English, at least 4,000 common words contain irregular spellings of some kind.

But the very worst aspect of English spelling is the use of identical graphemes for different sounds:
on, off, got, not, hot... - only, once, other, woman, women, womb.. which makes learning to read English much slower than in other languages too, not just learning to spell.

This is part of the overall spelling irregularities, but their effect on overall literacy acquisition is particularly nasty, because reading helps to imprint irregular spellings on our minds.
Children who take a very long time learning to read end up doubly disadvantaged.

But coming back to your point. The irregular spellings have to be linked to their words, one by one, anyway that helps. The is no magic method that works equally for everyone. For the majority it's a long slog, around 10 years on average.

You are back to plucking unsupported numbers from the air masha.

Mrz
U are accusing me, like many times before, of
plucking unsupported numbers from the air.
This is probably because u don't like what they show about English spelling inconsistencies, i.e. that 4 words in every 7 (4,000 out of 7,000) contain one or more irregular or phonically unpredictable letters.

U have also accused me before of basing my claims on too small a sample, because the English lexicon now contains over 1 million words. But as most people use and know only a fraction of them, I collected for my research, by comparing several word list for young children and spelling lists for older children, the words that an average 16-yr-old can be expected to have come across or be expected to know. It came to just over 7,000.

Interestingly, on the recent radio 4 programme Fry's English Delight (for which I was also interviewed) they concluded that a reasonably educated adult knows around 8,000 words. So I was not far off the mark.

The words which I analysed, as well as the results of my analysis, are all available for public inspection, as u well know.