Children in England start school too young.

[Kendodd]

Or so I think at least.

And not just me

Why won't the government raise the school starting age? Research seems to say it would benefit children, and it certainly doesn't seem to do children in other countries any harm. Instead they want to introduce testing for five year olds 'so we can compete with Finland (where they enter school at seven, after one year of pre-school)and China' They claim to be skint, they could just rename reception and Y1 'pre-school' make it voluntary, pre-school teachers are cheap, primary school teachers are expensive, so a whole heap of money is saved as well.

Abby - I could not agree with you more. I read with yr1 children in my DC school who do not even know how to "read" at book and by that I mean how to hold it and turn the pages over let alone decode.

They get in a right pickle turning the book to and fro (ok not so much now as yr1 has nearly finished but certainly up to half way in the year).

IMO if a child is at home for longer then the gap will get even bigger between kids whose parents support them at home and children who don't have that parental support.

That said, I do believe that parents should have the right to defer a child if they don't believe a child is developmentally/mentally ready for f/time school at 4.

My mantra re reading has always been the school teaches my kids how to read and I support this and I teach a love of reading and the school support me. But boy did DD challenge me on it! No way could she have stayed at home till she was 6 (or learn through play instead).

Simpson- I agree that a degree of flexibility is the key around the summer birthdays.

Duchesse- reading isn't the pinnacle of early childhood achievements. Just because a child chooses to learn to read doesn't necessarily mean they won't spend time making mud pies, playing with other kiddies, and learning to dress themselves. There appears to be a recurrent misconception that children that can read/ show numerical ability can't also be social.
I just don't like the race to the bottom that follows if you start talking about holding children up so that they can "start at the same point." You can't create a system that does this. The best you can hope for is trying to provide parents that don't with tools/skills that seem to come naturally to others. Bookstart is a fabulous example.
DS1 went to a nursery that were absolutely horrified that he could read. I was told that this was a bad thing, that schools didn't like it and that he would be bored in reception. Interestingly he did get a bit turned off at nursery by the end of the year but he has loved every second of reception and none of what nursery said turned out to be correct.

Ditto DD in reception (she is just finishing now).

Her behaviour in her nursery year was shocking when she got home and it all stopped the minute she went full time at school. Her behaviour has gotten worse the last few weeks as she is ready for yr1 but again her behaviour could be put down to heat, tiredness etc.

I taught myself to read before my 3rd birthday but did not progress as quickly as DD. it was only at about 7/8 that I was noticeably very ahead of the class and got bored etc. I remember reading in pairs and getting very frustrated with how long it took my partner to read the page etc so started misbehaving in class. But I am not sure this would be tolerated now although admittedly maybe I think this as DD is in a school that cater for her very well and extend her in areas I would not think of like getting her to read the register and reading in assembly etc but at the same time making it fun for her.

Simpson that's exactly how my dd is. Once she reaches the point of needing a bit more her behaviour gets shocking.

Glad my DD is not the only one

Hard work isn't it!! :o

I've had three years of it

I have had 2 if you include the nursery year although to be fair her reception teacher has been very good and we had a week in feb where her behaviour was bad at home and a week just before Easter where her behaviour was bad in school and both times her teacher said she needs more and said she would up what DD was doing.

I don't know how she did this but it worked anyway. But the last fortnight has been shocking and there is not much the school can do really as they are winding down. I just hope year 1 is easier!

I'm just not convinced that school is actually the best place for young 4 yo. DD2 can still remember being told off by her teacher for putting too much rain into a picture. She became increasingly difficult through reception, selective mutism, hiding under tables etc, and she was only there for two terms from the January! We'd elected to keep her in her nursery for an extra term but the school was an outstanding infant school and they wanted her bum on their seats by capitation in January so she had to go then. DD2 is highly intelligent but the whole year was quite traumatic for her.

This was only 4 years after a similar experience with July-born DS, who quietly dropped below the radar at infant school and stayed resolutely there for the next 2 years, doing absolutely nothing but stare out of the window. His y2 teacher told he "wouldn't even get a level 1 at KS1 SATs if he didn't pull his socks up". He now has 10 GCSEs at grade A*, A and a couple of Bs, 3 A levels of varying quality, and is 2 years into a degree in engineering.

We hoped upon hope for years that DS and DD2 would be OK but it took until year 10 for DS to feel he was in the right year group, and until y4/5 for DD2. Maybe my children are just tricky but I am unwilling to repeat the experiment with DD3.

Good post duchesse.

I guess even bigger shock going from preschool/nursery to reception is

the staff to pupil ratio just 1 teacher and 1 ta.

shock of being 1 of 30 kids all in at the same time.

In some schools where they have 2 open plan classrooms the noise levels for small 4year old must be too much.

The 5day fulltime attendance thing.

some schools stagger starts but couple here going fulltime from start this year dont know anyone whos been allowed to choose to send their child part time reception as theirs big diffrence from say 2half days or 5mornings-use this as example as thats the 15hours grant entitlement..

Then it must feel really overwhelming in assembles sitting with hundreds of kids in the hall.
potentially round here having typical 200-250kids playing in 1 playground.

dds last school playtime supervision was woefully inadequate.
Some shockers at old school including child who fell off playequipment hurt her ankle lunch staff dident tell teacher quiet child sat in pain all fatrenoon until her mum picked her up then couldent walk car went to a and e fractured ankle!
Dd1 had lots of accidents and heard storys about dinner ladies generally not being very good with kids very shouty and old fashioned.not all but there were a couple.

dd1s rception year was class 30 job share so 1 teacher 3 days other 2 and a ta. she knew many of the kids from linked preschool.
where she struggled was the leap between reception and year 1 suddenly became much more formal lots homework and kids set into tables and groups via ability.She was tall for her age and good at sports but wasent a sporty school so never got to boost her confidence that way, shes quite creative too but year 1 onwards hardly any arts and crafts was all very academic, by time we got to year 2 bootcamp which was like victorian classroom we left for more laid back village primary in mixed year 1 class so bit like repeat of year 1 but diffrentiated work and was what she needed shes finally feeling condident with her school work but its taken until year 2 for her to feel good about school, party as we picked the wrong school but she was 4.5 when she started as feb birthday.

The younger ones dident neccesariy struggle academically therere were few younger one son top table it was more like they struggled with tiredness and socially.

dd2 will be 5 in september she starts next year but im not sure she get a r place so the plan is homeschool until year 1 or 2 when place more likly come up .But when i asked preschool and nursery about her staying until term after 5th birthday i got some mixed results.

preschool 1-no dont belive in it.
new preschol we happy to consider idea never had it before.
nursery manager im not sure we are allowed t have 5year olds will have to check never heard f it before.

all 3 seemed ot think im mad.
i can get 15hours grant until jan term after her 5th birthday.
technically i expect her t be ready but if theres no school place.
plus for working parents who have hassle of whole term of staggered starts then defering by 1 term removes that but then people say they make freinds, but dd1 moved 1term into year 2 and made freinds easily plus she will hopefully know people from preschool who got a place.

Then theres dd3 2 starts 2015 april i think im going to defer him until jan/april. you couldent with dd1 or you lose a place laws changed but cant defer by too much or they start in year 1.
Anyway mentioned idea to preschool staff yesterday they thourght i was mad that he be behind he wouldent make any freinds that he e disadvantage starting later but hes not even talking yet preschool say hes mute he makes sounds at home knows 2works hes 2.5 in sepetember , he understands everything.

Now if we had more nurseries doing say age 3-5 that be fab.
as they currenty have 2s room and preschool room.

a reception light class for age 4-5 be fab as

if like dd2 shes just missed she can maybe start doing some structured work whilst at same time having lots of play, better staff ratios and attending part time hours as everyone can get the 15hours until term after their 5th birthday so odd not more people taking advantage of that as we brainwashed into thinking they have to start at 4.Im sure teaching phonics in smaller groups better results.

then by time they start reception they probably be ahead.
be good working parents as they would have option sending fulltime 8-6 with meals and part time or sahm parents could decide what they can afford and what kind of hours is right for their child at that time.

yes it means parents paying longer i they choose over 15hours but i think its price worth paying.

i know in private schools reception year take grant but you have to do a full year, fulltime and give notice term in advance so not viable option for many plus if child liked it a wanted to stay there then fees went up each year group.

what we need is a much more flexible schools system.

The holidays, start , pickup times , events make schools much more logistical nightmare than nursery.

In some areas schools did have september, jan and april starts as freind in windsor her son same year as dd1 started term later than mine and hes doing fab.

Or maybe some more flexibility in the schools years themselves they too ridgid its near impossible stay behind or move ahead.
a rolling reception for those not ready to go year 1 so maybe extra term of r but state schools cant do that as they dont have enough money or places.

Im american kindgarten do they gets mats and opportunities to nap like they show on film?

I do feel much more confident and standing out and being different with child 2 and 3 and will do whats best for them and us.

thing is if they start later then the gap could be even wider. my daughter started reception able to read, write and do maths. not because we pushed her to do it but because she just started to do it copying us and we answered her questions and encouraged her. had she started school older then by then I would have taught her a lot at home and the gap between her and some of her classmates would have got bigger and bigger so they wouldn't all be starting at the same point. Children are all so different, some are ready and some aren't but that will probably be the case in some way whenever they start. a bit more flexible would be better but I can't see how that could be organised with the battle for school places already as it is.

I should add she had all the physical and social skills too, she did her 15hrs a week at a preschool and the rest of the time at home with me and her sister.

Mam29, I think that is a bad experience but I can tell the total opposite. We just said good bye to a fantastic head who made a small infant school a happy and secure place, teaching outstanding results and teaching all kind of social skills as well.

They teach in a fun and loving way, yes they expect the children to work hard but also realise that some of the children may just be 4. The head actually was in favour of all children starting in September as she experienced too many difficulties with two start dates and then merging in Year 1.

It all depends on the school.

I should add that DS was in classes of 35 , 36 if a child was expected to leave mid year. This was in 1999, before they reduced maximum size of infant classes to 30.

Simpson & caffeine I feel your pain with the behaviour. I find it comes home at times too. DS2 has been doing 4 mornings at nursery and 1 morning at pre-school in with the reception class.
Over the last term on Mon- Thurs we get silly behaviour, baby talk and other little annoyances, joining in with silly behaviour (he doesn't seem to be an instigator but is very keen to join in!!) at nursery with the other little boys. On Friday he goes to pre-school and is instantly transformed to a sensible and mature little chap who behaves himself. He stays like this over the weekend then on Monday it's back to square 1. Thanks heavens he finished nursery today. His forthcoming reception teacher knows him from his Friday mornings and says he is more than ready to go. He is late April birthday, so only just 4.

Duchesse- I also think that reception has changed vastly since 1999. I think it has the play benefits of pre-school with the added bonus of trained teachers. I think really they had a very gentle introduction to school. They have just been slowly building in a little bit of writing here and a little bit of numbers there amongst what is essentially free play.

DD is so ready for yr1. She met her teacher and new classroom a couple of weeks ago and after the teacher explained the rules etc she said they could play ie get the Lego out and DD was most put out to not be learning anything!

Roll on yr1!!

There is a fresh article on BBC related to early start

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23435439

People who say their children are ready for school at 4 and are doing great school are missing the point of the original link the op posted that early academic learning is bad for children to start at young age. There is no problem for them if they figure out by themselves how to read while still in parents care, the problem is actually starts after they enter school where is there already pressure to perform. At home or preschool there is no pressure for them its all fun and games, do what they like. Delay starting school at 7 or 8 will not be detrimental to anyone and will not keep early readers behind.

Yet Sweden (held up by many as a good example) is saying

"This paper is about reading research in a mixed age class and about the implications for teacher education and teachers´ professionalism which can be found in this research. First I begin with the research.

Reading instruction in Sweden has traditionally begun at the age of seven, the start of compulsory school attendance. Results of research, however, indicate that reading instruction of younger children may positively affect their future reading competence."

Sure, but if children come from a background where they've never even seen or handled a book vs a child who's already reading, the first child will have 4 years of crucial experience to catch up- plunging them straight into reading & writing is pretty doomed to fail, surely? They need to love books, learning and acquiring information for any part of the education process to be successful. That's why to my mind we need a very strong early years education that is not focused on reading and writing. If a child is already reading by 4, fine, not a problem- there are surely plenty of other practical and social skills they could acquire in those early years. Presumably these children will be reading at home and have access to a wide variety of reading materials anyway so not "held back"

I suppose what I'm saying is that all early readers would be "missing out" on would be the chance to be on top table in a reception year that is very much focused on reading and writing.

IME 20 year experience as a parent, the order of achievement tends to weave and cross over as children follow their own learning curves. I think we give far too much weight to the school in putting learning into children's heads and not enough to the particular pathway the children are on. Children will have particular interests for months on end and develop those often to the exclusion of many other skills, so appearing to be "better" at them than others. Then they switch to something else.

How they are at 4 is certainly not reflective of how they'll be at 18, whatever reception teachers may feel (and they often have very trenchant views on the direction a child will take that are utterly misplaced imo). It's a marathon, not a sprint. The aim is a complete individual at the end of it, kitted out with the ability to fail gracefully, to cope with disappointment and reverses of fortune, to self-motivate and to know their own pathway.

I teach young children from homes without books and they all learn to read without failure.

I don't have a top table and reception isn't focused on reading and writing it's about the whole child. Research shows that personal skills and attitudes in reception are a much better indicator of future success than academic ones

AbbyR1973 Tue 23-Jul-13 20:55:45
"Cory- I didn't mean moving on and when I read back the post I realised that. What I meant was as well. The view is often that children shouldn't be allowed to learn these things before they are 6/7 because somehow it's damaging. I disagree with this view.
FWIW I do spend time doing exactly the things you mention BUT I am increasingly recognising as you do that many parents don't do this stuff with their offspring and do park them in front if the TV. Various schemes have been introduced to try and change this. You and I can say it doesn't take any special skills etc but clearly there is some factor preventing a sub group of parents from engaging with their children with the result that they arrive in school without these skills. I don't understand why we have more of a problem with this than some other countries like Scandinavia and suspect there is a cultural/ learned element. "

I think you are right, but have no idea why it is.

And definitely agree that the idea of preventing children from learning to read is bizarre. Incidentally, I never came across this in Sweden; I wanted to learn to read at 5 I asked my mum and my older brother what the letters meant (admittedly much easier with a language that is more or less phonetically spelled). Even if they had been working class without much formal education, I don't suppose anyone would have worried that there would be anything wrong in them showing me the letters. But it's that whole attitude of the divide between home (incompetent) and school (experts) that seems such a British thing.

I don't think the problem is only about a subset of totally unengaged parents (though this, of course, is the biggest worry). It seems to me there is an element of babying children in the UK because parents are so worried about health and safety, and that this gets in the way of a more multi-facetted education. Dd had plenty of friends who weren't even allowed to boil a kettle until they got to secondary. And of course that level of anxiety meant they weren't allowed to join in family DIY either. And encouraged to stay out of the kitchen.

They were taken on plenty of educational trips and given lots of opportunities but it was all a bit passive iyswim.

The same seemed to be the case with the educational system. Children were taught and shown things but not really encouraged to do much. What struck me about the nurseries/primary schools attended by dd and her cousins respectively was that everything crafts-like dd produced was so babyish in comparison to what her cousins did. Partly to do with less well trained staff, but very much again with health and safety. Her cousins came home from junior school with stools you could sit on and clothes you could wear and household items that could be used in the household. Dd might just get to ice a ready made biscuit. After I had sent in a special form giving my permission for this activity to take place. Of course there is far less satisfaction in doing things with your hands if it doesn't actually turn into something.

I agree that society cannot have much control over what individual parents do. But I don't see why nurseries and primary schools could not do more.

No, actually, I do see it. It's because of parental attitudes, fear of prosecution and lack of money for training staff.

I think some people are misunderstanding my suggestion. Starting school at 6 or 7 does not mean coming in cold, straight from home, my suggestion is that rec and Y1 become 'preschool' offering the same number of free hours that school does, but not compulsory, or maybe just Y1 could be compulsory. Formal school and teaching of the 3R (as opposed the the child just learning them, this could happen before then) could start. Before then books and numbers are ONLY a source of pleasure for children (as they are in my house), if they pick up reading or spotting letters and numbers and work out what you can do with numbers, fine, but that is not the objective, exploring the world and enjoying books and toys is. More free time for them to just play.

I don't really understand little children getting bored, I have very high achieving children who never got bored at pre-school (my youngest has just finished rec a book band above all the other children, the two closest behind her are both September birthdays, my DC isn't 5 until the end of August and was the youngest in the class). They entertained themselves by playing with their friends. This might not have been the sort of 'play' parents would think worthwhile (walking round with a bucket on your head while barking like a dog for example) but I thought that was great and they had fun, maybe I was wrong and they should have been 'working'. IMO another year or two with a bucket on their head would have done them the world of good, for me it's how you come out at the end that counts, not a couple of years in.

It seems to me there is an element of babying children in the UK because parents are so worried about health and safety, and that this gets in the way of a more multi-facetted education. Dd had plenty of friends who weren't even allowed to boil a kettle until they got to secondary. And of course that level of anxiety meant they weren't allowed to join in family DIY either. And encouraged to stay out of the kitchen.

Yes I agree, life has dangers (like kettles ) but it needs to be lived.

At one of my children's pre-school they wouldn't let the children outside if it was raining because they might slip over (although I suspect the real reason was that the staff didn't want to go out). In my opinion slipping over is also about learning, learning not to slip over!