Does anyone think phonics teaching has any harmful effects?

[housework]

I am happy to be persuaded either way but would be and would be interested to hear all views. Am thinking about dd and whether phonics has worked for her.
DD is 7, reads very well and comprehends what she is reading on the whole. She passed the Y1 phonics test getting the magic 32 so many children got. However, she's a poor speller to the extent that an Ed Psych has suggested testing for dyslexia. I'd like to do some more spelling work with her over the summer holidays. Today I did a bit of the Alpha to Omega placement test with her. She spelt crash as 'Krash' and chip as 'thip.' I let her do the next words 'splash' and 'thrush'. She spelt these correctly. With chip, I think she knew there were 'th', 'sh' and 'ch' to choose from and just picked one of them.
The above and other incidences make me wonder. Does phonics stop a child trusting their instincts? In her case, I think she is not considering how a word looks to help her spell it. She will always fall back on a phonetic spelling unless she already knows the spelling. If school had focussed more on rote learning, regular and rigorous spelling tests, would she spell better. At the moment they're all still ploughing through phonics because the failures have to re-take this year. But there are no expectations re spelling, barely any spelling tests, no words given to learn. And dd is the type that will only do the work if school have set it.
I'm just wondering where to go from here. Thanks for reading.

I have no idea what you are talking about, Malenky. What does "Well, there isn't really, is there?" mean??? To what are you referring???!!! So what if words look different, how does that help me know whether my different looking word is spelt properly or not unless I check it in the dictionary? Until then, all I know is that if someone read my word, they would say the word I want if I spelt it out by the sounds I could hear, but I still might not have spelt it correctly. Like defin-itely versus defin-ately. One is correct, the other isn't. Yes, they look different, but how does that tell ME which is correct if I didn't already know how to spell it? I can easily check it in the dictionary - defin-ately won't be in there. I will then remind myself for the future that definitely is not spelt the way I say it, but has an I in it like the word finite.

Do you always have a dictionary about your person rabbitstew? I know I get asked ...how do you spell that ... at the most inconvenient times for browsing the dictionary.

Oh, and of course, mrz, you tell people how to spell things you don't know how to spell when they ask you, rather than telling them you haven't got the means to hand to check and you can't be certain.

Well, rabbit, what I mean is, most adults don't stop learning words after age 5/6.

Written language is based on a system of symbols. They look different from one another. That's more or less the basic idea.

If you can't link the shapes to the sounds, and you never learn new words, does that not limit you? I would find it hard to use a child's vocabulary. I would find it impossible to use a dictionary by not knowing where to start. Yet you seem to be saying both are ideal?

No rabbitstew I tell them how to spell the word that is why they asked me

You still aren't making the slightest bit of sense to me, Malenky. At what point have I ever said, in my entire life, that you don't need to be able to link letter shapes to sounds?!!! Point out to me where I have ever said that. It's you who's been saying that it's enough to recognise the shapes...

So why do you think the letter names are important, then?

I think I am right saying it's important to recognize the shapes. You see, that's what writing is about.

Oh, please do tell me how you achieve that amazing feat, then, mrz...

by not using letter names because they don't help

But Malenky - you yourself have agreed that letter names are useful. Try spelling something out to someone over the phone without them. So I don't see what your problem is, here - the only thing we have any disagreement on is whether they are really confusing.

See, I can imagine she's thinking of adults using letter names, maybe?

Maybe she assumes adults do exactly the same as children?

but mrz, that's not spelling, that's sounding out and can result in the wrong spelling, but the right sound.

rabbit - yes, letter names are useful.

My problem is, your logic is fault. Sometime may be useful without being necessary. It is quite possible for a person who is literate to use one system, and for a learner to use another one.

You imagine you learned to spell by learning letter names, but surely this is not really true if you belive you had no means to learn new words?

Malenky - who said we are still talking about children?!!! You keep asking ME what I do, so why on earth are you now referring to children again? As for children, I've already stated my opinions on whether the majority of children find letter names confusing or not and agreed that some might, particularly those who haven't been exposed to them before and that in those cases, learning the names of the letters is not the priority. So what exactly is your problem, now?????

and yes I do know how to use a dictionary but to use a dictionary you do need to have a certain amount of prior knowledge or you wouldn't know where to start and spell checks are pretty useless if the word is a homophone or you put in a word that is similar to the one you wanted to spell

and I do write words down to see if they look right

And how come you're telling me how I learned to spell? I have never said I learnt to spell using letter names. You need to stop confusing one poster with another.

rabbit - you brought up what you did as an adult, hence my response.

I find the whole thing implausible, but likely if you are extrapolating from your current habits to what you imagine children do. It's not unusual.

How did you learn to spell, then, rabbit?

Yes, mrz, of course you need a certain amount of prior knowledge to use a dictionary. I happen to have a certain amount of prior knowledge, but now you and Malenky are treating me like a child and telling me I can't use a dictionary!

"sounding out" [what?]

Ok, but what is that 'prior knowledge'?

Might it be what we're referring to as knowledge of letter shapes and sounds?!

Malenky - I didn't bring up what I did as an adult - you brought up what people do as adults when asking learnandsay what she did about spelling new words once she left school. So far as I was concerned, therefore, the conversation had moved on to how adults learn to spell new words...

Ah, ok, sorry, I thought when you described how you'd act, you meant you as an adult.

I now understand you meant you're a child.

How come you're on MN? Sorry, we've been being very harsh - of course it must be very confusing for you. It's just usually, this is a forum for adults.

rbbitstew have you tried spelling out anything over the phone using letter names lately ... most companies want the NATO phonetic alphabet for clarity