So DS1 just walked out of school today - he is eight!

[Virgil]

I am inclined to go ballistic at the school. Clearly he is partly to blame and should never have left the school premises but surely they are required to prevent this!! He left something in DH's car and left school to see whether DH was still around (it was first thing). School is in the middle of a red light district (nice!) with lots of dodgy types around. Also on a very busy main road with trams going down a hill and a blind corner.

How "understanding" would you be with the Head (who is due to call me back). There is a security guard on the gate who presumably either saw him and did nothing or wasn't paying any attention.

not watching the gate for potential "runners". That's a reception class trick, not Year 3/4.

I must have created odd children.

zingally my husband is not responsible once he drops our child off into the care of the responsible adult on duty unless the school tell us that they are not supervising the children and keeping them safe. If the school say they have a teacher on duty from 8.15 then we are entitled to expect that teacher to be ensuring that our child is safe.

Your generalisations about legal responsibility are just that, generalisations. Each school clearly operates differently as we can see form this thread.

And school did know he was there since DH handed him over and into the care of the school.

Many children of this age walk to school alone - how would the security know this is not the case? They are there, I assume to look out for any trouble. Not to see children in and out.
The adults on the playground cant possibly keep track of every child, again they are there to prevent any trouble.

Before the bell has gone they are your responsibility unless the school has told you otherwise. A younger child wouldnt be left alone and if they were then the PARENT would be at fault, not the school.

I'm sorry but I dont see this to be the schools fault at all and entirely down to your DS. And to be fair what he did wasn't totally dangerous, especially as far as he is concerned. I assume he knows how to cross roads so he deems himself to be safe. I agree at 8 he cant make this judgement therefore if you cant trust him alone then don't leave him alone.

Totally agree with Wellthen, and would lay money on that being the legal situation too. Never heard of a school where anyone but the parent/childminder being responsible for a child up to the school start time.

is responsible

The school does have responsibility for DS once he arrives there and the teacher is on duty. If DH gets there early and there is no teacher on duty he stays until a teacher arrives.

Those who have never heard of a school where anyone but the parent has responsibility for the child until school start time have clearly never heard of a school breakfast club.

Anyway this is all irrelevant really since the school clearly think he should not have been allowed to leave school premises once handed over to them. The teacher is on duty from 8.15 at which point parents leave their children. This may not be the norm but it is at DS's school (independent which might possibly make a difference).

A school breakfast club has proper ratios of adults to children - adults are there to supervise specific children.

How big is your school? The idea that you think one teacher could be legally responsible for 100+ children before the start of school with no attendance register is absolutely ludicrous.

Well they are absolutely legally responsible in that I have a contract with the school to provide education and care for my child.

How many teachers are in the playground at any school at break time?

Anyway, back to the point, if the school feel they were responsible for ensuring my child did not escape from the premises then that ties in with my view. Clearly if the process is that you drop your child off in the supervised playground and leave then we are being led to believe the children are under the care of the school and can be left safely.

What does the policy say? That's the crucial question. If the policy states that you are responsible until they are in the classroom, YABU. If the policy states that you give the child to the teacher's care, YANBU.

At DD2's school, children can go in the playground until 08.50 when the doors open. Official school start is 9am (but you are really regarded as late if you turn up then ).

If I choose to leave DD2 in the playground, she will be unsupervised - she is not their responsibility. Once she's through the doors, the teacher is expected to keep her there and not let her back out to the playground.

Virgil - a school breakfast club is the responsibility of whoever is running it. They then hand over responsibility to the teacher at school start time. It may be that it is the same staff who run both the breakfast club and the school, but there will be a defined moment when responsibility shifts from one 'organisation' to the other.

lougle possibly in the state system but not at an independent school.

In any event it wasn't a breakfast club, I was just using that as an example.

Policy is that children are allowed on site from 8am but that a teacher will not be there to supervise the children until 8.15.

How many teachers are in the playground at any school at break time?

4 adults to 120 children, who are registered as being at school that day, and whom we are responsible for.

Of course it is right to assume the school should be taking responsibility for his safety! You are not even allowed to stay with him in the morning so the school are then admitting responsibility. He sounds like a nice boy who made the wrong choice, but if he'd been a naughty little shit, he still deserved appropriate care to safeguard him! It sounds like a particularly dangerous area with the busy road etc. Personally I'd put it in writing to the Head so it is taken seriously.

Ok well perhaps tomorrow I should take DS1 to school and then wait outside the school premises to ensure that he does not leave the playground even though I won't be able to see him to supervise him.

I'm not really sure why I'm still trying to argue that I'm right when the school themselves have accepted that DS1 should not have been able to get off the school premises and that the road is dangerous

Well then you have to frame your discussion with the Head in terms of the policy and review security and your expectations?

I also think you should tell your DS that under no circumstances is he to leave the site and that in the event of forgetting his instrument, he should take steps x, y, z.

Is it an infants school or only juniors?

For me, the security question would be more worrying if there was a risk of 4yos escaping, less so if the youngest children were of an age where I would expect them to be able to take some basic responsibility themselves.

In dc's junior school children were allowed to walk home alone from a certain age so security was less tight than it had been in the infants school where no child was ever allowed to leave the grounds unsupervised.

Oh op, you are right. Your dc's school sounds very similar to my dc's school. We are not allowed to follow the children through the gate and the parents are encouraged to leave as soon as they have dropped off. Our school states that children aren't allowed to be dropped off before there is a teacher at the gate, but at 8.30 there is a teacher there guarding the gate. From that time, until the parent picks up at the end of the day they are in loco parentis.

"Those who have never heard of a school where anyone but the parent has responsibility for the child until school start time have clearly never heard of a school breakfast club."

Which is something entirely different and separate to the rest of the school in terms of policy. In my entire teaching career, I've NEVER encountered a school that takes legal responsibility for a child before the bell goes. NONE. EVER.

Yes, many have staff that come into the playground, but that's purely to stop silly, rough play, or deal with any immediate parental issues.

UNLESS your child has a prior arrangement to be deposited with a member of staff with a "here's Sam for you", then, unless the school policy reads that school has LEGAL responsibility from 8:15, then whatever the school does in terms of having staff out there, is nothing but a bonus, and has no legal standing whatsoever.

FannyFifer - you said: "The school are not at fault here at all, security guard doesn't know which kids can go in and out, I assume some children get to school by themself."

Surely the security guard would assume that no children would be allowed back out of the playground at the beginning of the day, once in? Essentially the school day has begun, the school is responsible for the child once they are in the playground (because they insist parents drop the children off, rather than supervising them in the playground until school starts) - so just as the school wouldn't just allow a child to go wandering off once lessons have started, unless they are picked up by a parent/carer and handed over to that parent, they shouldn't be allowing children out of the playground, once they are in.

We used to have the same system at the dses' primary school - the children either walked themselves to school, or were delivered to the gates by a parent or carer. There were staff on the gates to make sure that, once in, the children did NOT leave the playground.

The whole point is that the school are in loco parents - if they do not let parents supervise their children in the playground until school starts, but insist they are dropped off at the gate, they are accepting responsibility for the child as soon as they enter the playground

We are allowed to drop DS2 off from 830am and school does not start till 850. He is only YR but we can only drop off at the gate not the classroom, there is a teacher on the gate the whole time.

I would be beyond livid if DS was able to leave the premises. There are teachers supervising so I would fully expect the children to remain on the premises as they are their responsibility.

At DS1s school (infant) they are allowed in the playground before school but they are not allowed in till 855. It is made very clear to us that we are not allowed to leave the children until they have gone into the school at 855. If one of them left the premises after this time I would consider it the schools responsibility.

HI OP, I have PM-ed you.

In my entire teaching career, I've NEVER encountered a school that takes legal responsibility for a child before the bell goes. NONE. EVER.

My dc's school takes responsibilty before the bell goes. From 8.30 in the morning.

Zingally - I promise you, the dses' primary school set up a system where parents were not allowed in the playground before school. The school gates were manned by staff, there were staff on duty in the playground, and we dropped the children off any time after 8.30am.

The school were concerned that anyone could come into the playground during dropping off time, and that the sheer number of people in the playground (the children, parents/carers and siblings) meant that it was more hazardous for all the children running around - and before you ask, these are the reasons given to me by the Headteacher when I requested a meeting about the change to the new drop-off system.