What should I expect from maths teacher

[Labro]

Ds is yr 6, last year he finished yr 5 on 4b for maths, this year he was a 4c at Christmas and seems to be sliding backwards (scoring 33% in a test on factors and 40% recently on a general 11+ 'style' assessment) where he was regularly scoring 80%+ in yr 5.
His teacher doesn't seem concerned, should I be asking for extra help for him?

Is he willing to do the types of maths papers that you can buy in WH Smiths at home? If he is then you can mark his papers and see where he's going wrong. If he used to score highly in such tests and now he doesn't any more it's probable that he's just getting rusty. If you familiarise yourself with the areas that he's getting rusty in you can give him little refreshers from time to time. And as far as the teacher who seems a bit slack and unconcerned is concerned, you can just tell him what you want him to do and hope he does it. If he doesn't it doesn't matter because you'll be doing it anyway.

teacher who seems a bit slack

Sorry, what are you basing this on?

Nope, he hates those books and my own maths is worse than his!

Hi Labro:

First NC Level score dropping. This is a standard approach with some teachers because they are required to show two sub-levels of improvement for each pupil each school year. So frequently the score at the end of the previous year is dropped one sub-level at the start of the new school year.

It also may be about trying not to raise your expectations - the school may have doubts about your DS's chances of achieving NC Level 5 - so have lowered their expectations for him accordingly.

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11+ exams are for identifying the top 5% or so in the nation at maths/ english/ verbal and non-verbal reasoning. The maths paper will be working at NC Level 5 at the lowest to NC level 7 at least. It will be dealing with concepts that are not covered in the standard primary curriculum (area of circles, algebraic equations, etc...). They're jolly tough tests and a child performing low NC Level 4 would find it really difficult. Also the first time many children take these timed tests - they often do not do very well. They spend way too much time working out the tricky problem and can't complete all the questions.

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Not sure whether factoring is the issue or there is an underlying weakness in multiplication skills. It may be a start to understand if he knows his times tables fully to x12. His school may only be teaching to x10. Don't panic - all you need to learn is 11 x 11, 11 x 12 and 12 x 12 - so three more facts.

Practice ideas for multiplication:

multiplication dot com: www.multiplication.com/

maths champs: www.mathschamps.co.uk/#home - 9-11 games will review elements of maths curriculum he should be mastering now.

Mumsnet times table game: www.mumsnet.com/learning/maths/interactive-times-tables-activity

Woodlands junior school: multiplication: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/timestable/index.html
& division: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/division.htm

Timez Attack (& there is a division game too) - free version - two platforms - dungeon and dragons theme maze where you go through solving multiplication/ division problems. Starts at the level you are working at by testing ability first: www.bigbrainz.com/

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Practice for factoring:

BBC Bitesize KS2 factoring game: www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks2/maths/number/factors_multiples/play/

(and just generally) BBC Bitesize KS2 maths revision games: www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks2/maths/

These can be very dry, but Khan Academy has videos explaining mathematical principles from about this point (really meant for senior school level) - and these may be useful: www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/factors-multiples - section on factors and multiples and videos like why divisible by 3? or why divisible by 9? may be helpful.

HTH

Sorry thinking through the times table thing if your DS has only learned up to 10 x 10.

With x11

First 9 are a doddle: just double the multiple - so 3 x 11 = 33, 4 x 11 = 44.

two digits multiplied by 11 - there's a trick:

separate first and second digit you're multiplying 11 by and then add them together for middle number. Example: 14 x 11 - separate 1 and 4 and put middle number as sum of 1+4 - so 1 - (1+4) - 4. That gives you 1 - 5 - 4 so 14 x 11 = 154. Have a play with this - it is a nice little trick. With bigger numbers you may have to do some carying over - e.g. 28 x 11 = 2 - (2+8) - 8 = 2 - (10) - 8 [but you can't put 10 in the tens column so put in zero and carry the one) so (2 + 1 - having carried the one over) - 0 - 8 = 308.

Now that does honestly just leave you with 11 x 11, 11 x 12 (use trick for both - so 11 x 11 = 1 - (1+1) - 1 = 121 and 12 x 11 = 1 - (1 + 2) - 2 = 132 )

and 12 x 12 - which you can memorise = 144 - and that's the ticket.

At some point you might want to teach column method for larger multplication problems and bus stop method for division.

column method multiplication: example for one digit www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/multiplication-division/multi_digit_multiplication/v/multiplication-4--2-digit-times-1-digit-number

full multidigit multiplication lessons here for Khan Academy: www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/multiplication-division/multi_digit_multiplication/v/multiplication-4--2-digit-times-1-digit-number

lessons on Long division (now called short division in UK curriculum) here: www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/multiplication-division/long_division/v/division-3--more-long-division-and-remainder-examples

HTH

PastSellByDate - any teacher dropping children by a sub level at the start of the year would have to explain why the child had in fact only moved one sub level while in their class. It is NOT a standard procedure, and would not do the teacher or the child any favours at all.

Many thanks. Timestables, they've done 11's & 12's as well as all the others.
Waiting for a call back as just checked his report from last school (end of yr 4) where he was a 3a - so shes effectively saying hes moved one sub level in the whole of year 5 and half of year 6!

Labro: yes the scores for Y4 and Y5 are therefore worrying - it suggests poor progress and it is disappointing that the school hadn't made it clear to you this was occurring. However, it is a marathon not a sprint - and a 4c (which your DS is scored at now) will mean he is likely to pass KS2 Maths SATs. Long term, you may like to try and support maths more at home, because most Maths teachers in senior school prefer strong NC 4s or 5s in an ideal world.

Feenie:

The school year is not over. The last NC Maths level score reported to parent was in December - I'm suggesting that the teacher moves back one sub-level at start of year (so in this case to a 4c - presumably reported to Labro at first parent/ teacher meeting in Dec.) and that low and behold by end of school year DC will be a 4a.

I am certain you are in no doubt from other discussions on this kind of practice here on Mumsnet that this little fiddle often plays out at various schools. Teachers have to demonstrate two sub-levels progress for each pupil and it is effectively halving the work if you slightly lower scores. In this case it may also reflect doubt about securely achieving NC Level 5 on SATs and therefore lowering parental expectations to avoid complaint/ disappointment.

I also think performance related pay may also encourage this type of thing (although I'm not certain whether this style of pay has rolled out or not yet everywhere).

I stress Feenie - I'm not saying you do this. I am not saying all teachers do this. I am saying some teachers fiddle the system - just as some tax payers fiddle the system. It's human nature and sadly what happens whatever the system.

HTH

In your experience of...how many schools? Seriously, PastBy - it wouldn't wash in the vast majority of schools, and a teacher would be in serious bother for trying it. They wouldn't be able to do it - it wouldn't work!

Feenie - perhaps past is related to our friend on another thread :-)

Past - do you work for the khan academy? only you seem keen to promote them on every maths related question?

Thanks for the advise, teacher has explained ds was having problems with certain bits and forgetting to show his working which affects the 11+ style scores a lot. Also as they prepare for CE the stress on NC levels isn't there as it would be in a state school in Yr 6 (moved from state to private beginning yr 5 so have tendency to think in NC levels!)

Labro:

No do not work in education - but working part-time so I can basically home educate kids at fairly poor local school.

Actually have only mentioned Khan academy in two places, recently because you were specifically looking for help in maths on factoring - and that's the only place I could find instruction for free myself so far (used it with DD1).

Used it for second separate post because high ability child is bored in Year 6 - so was suggesting means to carry on work in maths outside school.

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Sorry Feenie - obviously your LEA has put in place some means of recording movement on levels between years and clearly requires you to honour end of year NC Levelling of previous teacher. This does not happen in this LEA. The clock starts fresh each year. The new teacher is not expected to work from the prediction at end of year by the previous teacher here - instead they reassess the child, frequently to a lower sub-level and start from there. This LEA recognises that there can be 'loss of learning' over the summer - thus room for manoeuvre.

I stress again - I am not saying all teachers or every LEA does this. I'm saying that it happens here and frequently - and not just our school - family, friends and colleagues in the area report it's much the same at their schools in this LEA.

Oh Labro:

By the way - Khan academy is absolutely free - you can even use the videos without signing up.

HTH

Wellthen:

Can you provide a link (form something like DfE or Education.gov) that states it's 3 levels of progress now in all primaries in England. Our school website - updated last moth still states only 2 sub-levels here - so I'd be very interested to pass on this information to our school.

Mumsnet has this: www.mumsnet.com/learning/assessment/progress-through-national-curriculum-levels

copied from Mumsnet link above:

End of Year Rec 1 2 3 4 5 6

Level attained 6-9 1A 2B 2A/3C 3B 4C 4A

Sub-levels attained 2 1/2 2 2 2

Many thanks & please let Mumsnet know if data is incorrect.

This 2011 report on progress KS2 -3 (www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/DFE-RR096.pdf makes intresting reading (data spans 2000 - 2007) and two sub-levels progress per year certainly gels with their results: see especially Figures 5.3b & 5.3c page 56 - where vast majority of students achieve 2 sub-levels or less.

I did try using search on DfE website and on Education.gov - but could find no guidance document on expected levels of progress.

With thanks for any updated information you can provide to us all.

Past sell by date - how on earth do these schools get away with dropping all these kids back year upon year?? Surely it shows a less than robust assessment system within school and ofsted would be on them like a shot?

It may be acceptable in your school to drop a sub level after summer but that does not negate the fact that children need to make 2 full levels (6 sub levels) progress over KS2 to make satisfactory progress. If a child constantly goes back, they made have appeared to make 2 sublevels in that year, but have not made it over ks2.

Eg 2c, 2b, 2a - 2b, 2a, 3c - 2a, 3c, 3b - 3c, 3b, 3a - they have gone from a 2c to a 3a - not a full 2 levels. This is using an example of a child who progresses just as we like and with consistency which of course children don't do.

From Ofsted inspection guidance:
To get a good for progress.
 Taking account of their different starting points, the proportions of pupils making and exceeding expected progress compare favourably with national figures.

To get a 'requires improvement'
 Pupils? achievement requires improvement as it is not good.

'Good', as seen above, is defined as 'better than expected'. The expected is 2 sublevels so the bare minimum is 3 or, I spose, 2 and a bit.

This does not change the required progress but some schools may be upping their expectations as they cannot afford to get a 'requires improvement'. To get out of 'requires improvement' and into a good (basically to get ofsted and the LA to leave you alone) you have to show good progress. (Good by ofsted definition not good as a descriptive word)

www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/school-inspection-handbook

None of this actually makes my point though. You know nothing about this teacher and their motives, you dont even know which LA they work for. You call them slack and say he must be fiddling the system. Perhaps the teacher thinks the previous assessment is just wrong. Aside from anything else, 11+ tests aren't touched by the state schools so the child's scores in these have no relation to his progress in the classroom.

Sorry have just read your last post in a bit more detail:

Mumsnet is a website for Mums, it isnt a place I would necessarily go to find out about the education system. I am a teacher. Our school is likely to be ofsted-ed this year. I have been in countless meetings with the HT and LA advisors. MN may think teachers are stupid, lazy, hate children etc etc but please allow us to know what is going on in our own profession.

2011 data is meaningless. The ofsted framework changed in Jan 2012 and AGAIN in summer 2012.

As I've said most of the things you will find (because you dont work in a school and so dont actually know what the grade descriptors mean) will say 2 sublevels because this is EXPECTED. Oftsed, being run by government, naturally dont settled for expected and want good. Therefore your whole 'teachers fiddle the system cos their so selfish' falls flat.

Have to agree with wellthen - as I've explained to you before, your scenario of one sublevel a year would mean most children failing to convert 2 levels between Y2 and Y4. Neither Ofsted nor any LEA would put up with this, and it could not possibly be policy anywhere at all.

I think we're talking at cross purposes and perhaps best to lay out scores observed:

Hi Well then let's explain the system using your data:

2c, 2b, 2a - 2b, 2a, 3c - 2a, 3c, 3b - 3c, 3b, 3a

partly because I think we're speaking at cross purposes: I would take your 2a sub-level (end first year) as achieved.

so rolling back system:

Year 3: 2c - 2a

Year 4: 2a - 3c/3b (working to 2a again from start of year (although already achieved by pupil end of previous year. end of year target usually presented as 2/3 sub-levels ahead so in this instance 2a to 3c/ 3b for end of year target - open ended & really up to child - if they report 3b then 3 sub-levels achieved but rolled back next year)

Year 5: 3b - 3a/4c (working to 3b again from start of year - this could be real or rolled back (i.e. child could have achieved 3c or 3b) - again open to child to achieve 2 or 3 sub-levels)

Year 6: 3a to 4c/4b (may involve roll back (so working to 3a at start of year) - may also be presented as secure 4c working to 4a at end of year. Rolling back from 4b (which was what I suggested to Labro can be about doubts about achieving boundary from NC Level 4 to NC Level 5c).

It's not unfair to the teacher or pupil. It's possible to achieve 3 sub-levels (actual 2 sub-levels) in a given year and to achieve full 2 NC sub-levels.

Not applied to 100% of all subjects (maths/ science/ English) & not applied to 100% of pupils.

It's a way of moderating workload across a year - whereby children where there is doubt about achieving 2 full sub-levels start back at the beginning for last sub-level achieved.

Hope that makes more sense

Again teachers writing or indeed just reading this - if there is a website from the government which specifically states that English primaries are legally required to achieve 3 sub-levels progress per pupil per year for English/ science/ maths please, please, please direct me to it. Our school firmly maintains they are only required to achieve 2 NC sub-levels (APP level presumably match what Kent has here: www.kenttrustweb.org.uk/UserFiles/ASK8/File/School_Improvement/Ofsted_Ready_File/1_-_Achievement/KS1_2/What_is_Standard_Progress.pdf, but our school does 'endeavor' to achieve 3 sub-levels progress in Reading, Writing & maths for pupils. No statement on science & no scores reported to us Y3 - Y5 (possibly will be on KS2 SATs - don't know yet DD1 in Y5).

It's not unfair to the teacher or pupil. It's possible to achieve 3 sub-levels (actual 2 sub-levels) in a given year and to achieve full 2 NC sub-levels.

sorry that should have read

and to achieve full 2 NC levels (in my example starting 2c and ending 4c) & achieving government target of NC Level 4 at KS2 SATs.

Hope that's clearer.

This is a standard approach with some teachers because they are required to show two sub-levels of improvement for each pupil each school year. So frequently the score at the end of the previous year is dropped one sub-level at the start of the new school year.

Now you are saying that these lovely well-meaning teachers move them 3 sublevels a year despite it not being 'required'. Which is it? Either they are fiddling the system to meet requirements or they are allowing for fall back over the summer.

I think I made it pretty clear that 3 sublevels is not expected and therefore you wont find it on a website. However as it is something that schools need in order to not fail, it can be seen to be required by Headteachers.

2 teachers who don't know each other and probably work in completely different LAs are telling you YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. You're not a teacher, despite the fact you clearly think you do a better job. PGCE or GTFO

Can I ask why my posts were deleted? I thought we were allowed to swear? I don't remember calling names or being directly offensive, I just pointed out that a poster was wrong.

Well then:

I'm saying that each year the level the child achieved rolls back to working to that level again at the start of the year and parents are told their DC was working to 2a at end of Y3 (using your example) but he's lost a bit of learning and now scores 2b (again using your example) on our placement tests. Therefore I have him working to a 2a and his end of year target is a 2b (he's working to 2a again right now). I think X can achieve more, so I've written here 2b/ 2a Mrs PSBD, but I am only required to raise achievement by two sub-levels (this is school policy & is on website of school - but clearly states that they often achieve more than 2 sub-levels per year).

X achieves 2a. Teacher praised for raising achievement 3 sub-levels in house. Parents thrilled because there's a tracked improvement of 3 sub-levels - but then the same fiddle happens again the next year. School management satisfied because they can show good progress.

I am not so worried about whether they attain 2 or 3 sub-levels - it is the regular rolling back of achievement at start of school year I'm really perplexed by.

Now try this on for size Well then. If this school which has good achievement (sometimes 3 sub-levels or more in a year) is doing things right why are their combined KS2 SATs L4+ as follows:

2009 67%

2010 withheld (rumour is it was also in the 60s)

2011 79% (SAT practice books purchased for the year and only
SAT prep lessons taught for 3 months + run up to
OFSTED year - school had regular homework for first time
and all sorts of enrichment activities that year only).

2012 62%

By the way on School data dashboard - they're performing in terms of progress highest quintile in the nation in English & 2nd highest in maths for 2012. In terms of KS2 SATs 4th quintile in English areas and lowest quintile in Maths.

Oh and entry at YR is assessed as working above national average in EYFS - most puils (93%) having attended excellent nurseries in the area and many already starting to sound out words (if not reading already) and able to write numbers and their name.

Again I think we're talking at cross purposes and I am just reporting tracked data which doesn't lead to good KS2 SAT results. If you think this system of frequent rolling back of achievement at start of school year is outstanding practice you are entitled to your opinion. I look at this continuous roll back thing leading to high progress results per pupil per subject + poor KS2 SATs results over time and think ...

But as I've said in many posts here on MN - I am certainly an old cynic.

PastBy, the school management would not be able to show good progress, as you state, because the tracking system would also show the 'rolloing back' which you describe.

If this does happen in your school, then it's beyond disgraceful, and they are in deep, deep trouble when OFSTED arrive.

Where I have an issue is when you pop up on threads insisting this happens everywhere, in whole LEAs even, and as such is common practice. It doesn't, and you are giving very poor advice when you say that. Your situation is terrible, but it's very very odd aswell, and peculiar to your school only.