Phonics versus Biff, Chip and Kipper

[Lukethe3]

I find it slightly irritating that at DS school he is taught phonics but then sent home to read the old ORT stuff which has tricky words at even the easiest level. Is this purely because the school has no money to buy new books or is there actually an advantage to be taught like this?
I have bought some Songbirds books for DS and these seem to make far more sense to me as they include the sounds that DS is learning.

If your daughter is able to read All Stars independently (and by that I mean without any input from adults) then yellow most certainly isn't the correct level for her. But obviously the correct level depends on how much input you need to provide for her to read other books.

The trouble with the word correct is that it involves the judgement of the teacher. If for whatever reason the teacher believes that all children should read books in scheme order then the correct level will never be the same as a teacher who believes that children should read books that are at the level of their independent reading ability.

So it all depends on what one thinks the word "correct" means.

mrz is right (and more knowledgeable than me).

My dd had some All Stars when she was reading lime level. She didn't love the stories (the ones she got from school had animals as characters which isn't her thing) but they were good first chapter books.

I don't know what level they start at, but it's considerably higher than yellow I would think.

'Correct' in this context means a level that a child can read independently on first sight with no help from an adult ie pick up an unfamiliar text and read it.

If you're describing a situation where your dd can pick up an All Stars for the first time and read it independently, then I'm surprised that you think that yellow non decodable books are about the right level for her, as there's a world of difference.

In this circumstance, I would ask for my child's reading to be properly assessed.

All Stars are right at the end of the scheme and are for advanced readers. But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that different teachers obviously have different opinions on what a reading scheme is for. My daughter's teacher said last term that she could "rush my daughter through the scheme."

She also said that she did not want to and that (a) she did not want to do that (b) her school books had to be read in order.

So, clearly her view or" correct" is not the same as the one being put forward here.

As you were the one using the word "correct" learnandsay it depends on what you mean when you say you think it is the "correct level" we can only offer opinions based on the information you provide.

If there's a large disparity between what your dd is able to read independently at home and her school books, then you're probably best off using your energies in getting her reading level assessed rather than debating the semantics of the word 'correct'.

Obviously I don't know how your child's school use All Stars but they are intended for "high flyers" (according to OUP) not as part or end of the scheme

It sounds as if your daughter's teachers view of correct is based on what your daughter needs in order to learn effectively which I share. I don't however agree that a child needs to read every single book in order and feel teachers should use their professional judgement to decide what a child needs and not be influenced by silly policies or dare I say it parents!

All Stars start at gold book band

As far as I can tell, other than giving me non decodable books, the teacher hasn't been influenced by parents.

I don't think anyone is saying that the teacher's view isn't based on what she thinks is necessary. It's just different people's views of necessary will not be the same. Some teachers do "rush through the scheme" and others don't.

In some senses it could be said that it depends whether or not the teacher believes the scheme is necessary to be gone through methodically or not. I'm not sure that her view is specifically related to my child. It doesn't seem so. But I can't know that for sure.

I agree that peoples views on what is necessary learnandsay but hopefully your daughter's teacher's view is based on assessment of what your child needs to learn and any gaps in her current knowledge.

It isn't a case of "rushing" through the scheme (we have 7 or 8 schemes not one) but choosing the correct book for the child.

Rushing through the scheme is what the teacher herself said.

But, to be honest, I'd rather remain with the books that we've got than go onto decodable blue or green books. I don't know what decodable orange books are like.

I'm not using school books to advance my daughter's reading anyway. We only read them because we have to. If I didn't have to read them with her I wouldn't.

I'm sure she did ...I would say something similar if a parent wanted a child to have books beyond their capability that in my professional judgement would not meet the child's learning needs ...

Why do you have to read the school books ...lots of families don't

Surely no teacher in their right minds would have a child who's at treetops stage 9/10 level reading stage three? That's beyond holding back it's down and out stifling!! If your teacher really does want every book and every stage read in correct order you will be waiting until yr 2/3 before she receives the books she's capable of now in reception. You are being far more accepting than many would be!!!

I mean I've dealt with it to some extent my dd was a level or two above what they allowed her but she wasn't 7+ stages ahead. I think most would have plenty to say about that!

I didn't ask for any books.

We sat down at parents evening and she told me that my daughter basically gets reading. Then she said "I could rush her through the scheme but I don't want to."

I went home and thought about it for a bit and wrote asking for the books we were getting at the time which were 1+ or 2 and stage 5 both at the same time. Because the 1+/2 books were useless and some stage 4 books I'd seen at an open day looked too easy. The teacher said "the books have to be read in order."

And then she said I'll send her a mixture of books and then put her up and put her up again. And since then we've been getting this random assortment of ancient non decodable books. I'm not sure there's any real sense of order in what's going on but I'm a lot happier with these books than I was with the other ones.

I agree Wheremycaffeinedrip no teacher would have a child who could independently read All Stars (these are intended for young reception children so can't really be compared to treetops) reading yellow band ORT

We haven't had an ORT book for a while. We're getting all kinds of weird books. Some appear to have been colour banded several times over the generations.

I agree that sometimes children do get overlooked. One kid doing well in a class of thirty could go un noticed for a while til it's his/her groups turn to be assessed and moved on appropriately.

But id have thought that a ten minute reading assessment with your daughter would be far easier than dredging out the worlds oldest copies of ORT. If she's prepared to go off the book order for those then y not a stage four?

Perhaps it would be worth talking to the teacher again as she does t sound very communicative and I think it would be far more helpful for her to explain to u where the gaps r so that you can help her get her comprehension , knowledge of punctuation etc inline with her word recognition.

I'd go mad if my dds teacher would rather send home moth eaten copies of old books than assess her.

I would be extremely worried if a child in a class of 30 got overlooked as assessment should be ongoing

Unfortunately it does happen in some schools. Fortunately not my dds but the point I was trying to make was that the teacher is going to an awful lot of trouble to keep her from progressing so either she's an awful teacher in which case I don't know how anyone could sit back and accept such a massive difference, or- there r gaps in the child's abilities which L&S has not been made aware of yet , that is the reason she's remaining on stage 3

(and mrz u sound like a good teacher ! There are a couple of schools near me where it has been mentioned in
Ofsted reports about the lack of differentiation) that's why I said that sometimes kids can get over looked. Not in all schools though

Going back to 'one', why is that so hard to understand? Phonics uses lots of graphemes to denote phonemes. They don't always sounds as you'd expect.

so can also represent the sound 'wu' (or is it 'wo', I expect it changes according to your accent?)

I would hope it is the second of your reasons Wheresmycaffinedrip

In my area the letter in one would be the spelling for "wo" which is how I would teach it if the need ever arose lougle.