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phonics experts -come and settle an argument

379 replies

sausagesandwich34 · 23/01/2013 21:43

scone it's an oldy but a goody!

pronounced to rhyme with cone or gone?

does the magic 'e' come into play?

does the magic 'e' even exist anymore?

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maizieD · 26/01/2013 14:26

I agree with mrz that David Crystal is a safer bet than masha as far as the history of the English language is concerned. She has a tendency to make unevidenced sweeping statements about so many aspects of reading* that I wouldn't trust her 'soundness' as a researcher.

(*I have, on occasion, followed up some of her 'sources' and found that they did not say what she claimed that they did)

maizieD · 26/01/2013 14:28

the etymology of scone is schoonbroot (dutch)

How did the Dutch pronounce it, mrz? [swink]

mrz · 26/01/2013 14:34

I would imagine something like skoon [bwink] and it was a flat cake rather like to Stone of Scone

maizieD · 26/01/2013 14:35

Whoops! That should be a [b wink]

Why don't I preview more often... [bwink]

scrablet · 26/01/2013 14:35

and if those who can do and those who can't teach then realistically, how will anyone ever learn anything...?

maizieD · 26/01/2013 14:37

I would imagine something like skoon wink and it was a flat cake rather like to Stone of Scone

Would that be the Stoon of Skoon, then, mrz?

mrz · 26/01/2013 14:42

It would be [bwink] ...I remember having an annual as a child that had a comic strip story of the Stone of Scone and it's theft and subsequent return to Scotland

mrz · 26/01/2013 14:47

and then there are those who try to teach their grandmother to suck eggs scrablet.

LindyHemming · 26/01/2013 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrz · 26/01/2013 15:31

Not been since I was a child but a Palace of scones sounds worth another trip [bgrin]

LindyHemming · 26/01/2013 15:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrz · 26/01/2013 15:40

Sounds very promising Smile

BooksandaCuppa · 26/01/2013 17:17

I third David Crystal.

Mashabell · 27/01/2013 07:38

Mrz
you may have noticed that in most cases Feenie and myself have been contributing to the threads long before you arrive
I hadn't, but I have noticed that u post a great many hostile comments, which several people have also commented on.

your "lists" and unhelpful comments about the English spelling system
My lists are always related to the discussion and many people find them helpful.
U don't like them, because they show that English spelling is less regular than u pretend it is.

mrz · 27/01/2013 07:47

no masha your lists appear at every opportunity and as people have pointed out here and on other fora they are inaccurate so unhelpful!
Correct your lists and post away.

mrz · 27/01/2013 07:50

I would add that I think Debbie Hepplewhite's alphabetic code sheets clearly show the complexity of English orthography accurately
or try looking at

www.sounds-write.co.uk/docs/sounds_write_common_spellings_of_the_consonants_and_vowels.pdf

for a nice clear accurate overview

you might find it helpful masha

Mashabell · 27/01/2013 07:56

Miss bp
in the vagaries of English spelling has no real relevance on a forum which helps parents address their child's reading and spelling problems.
Some people have said that they find them of interest.

The work you have done is of interest, perhaps, to adults who want to know how spelling evolved. You are clearly promoting a cause but I don't think that MN is the place to do it.

I have looked at your books and reviews- most of which are NOT good! Abd you appear to be self-published. I wonder if you are in danger of over stepping the mark here with self-publicity for your work using this forum as a vehicle?

I never mention my books on here. I have been very busy for the past two days and cannot remember if it was u or someone else who asked me a little while ago,
Masha- have you thought about writing a book on this as you spend a huge amount of time "educating" people- maybe you could actually make it pay?
(It may even have been earlier on this thread, but it's become too long to search through.)

I did wonder at the time if u perhaps knew that I had and were trying to trick me into talking about them, so u could get me banned from this forum.

I replied (and kept a copy, because it was rather long):

--- I have, as Mrz has pointed out. (I just hope that her doing so won't get me banned from this forum.)

Foolish though this may seem, I am much more concerned about 'educating' than making money. I first became annoyed and pre-occupied by the inconsistencies of English spelling when I first started to learn English at the age of 14, but it wasn't until my premature retirement from teaching (mostly English and modern languages in Dorset for nearly 20 years) that I had the means and leisure to study them and their origins in depth. My retirement happened to coincide with renewed media pre-occupation with literacy failure in the 90's and blaming it on poor teaching, while totally ignoring the alphabetically irregular nature of English spelling.

I think what finally pushed me into this, when my health began to improve a bit and I was considering what to do with my life, although I had a small pension, was some phonics expert saying that the rest of Europe has higher literacy standards because they use nothing but phonics. She was suggesting that if the same happened over here, the results would be the same, which to me showed abysmal lack of awareness of the differences between English spelling and all other European writing systems. I felt somebody needed to do some 'educating'.

Doing research and writing a book seemed the best way of doing it at the time. But the internet has given me opportunities for 'educating' in ways which no fairly academic book ever could before.

This is very annoying to people who still like to pretend that learning to read and write English is no different from other alphabetically written languages. - It makes it much harder for them to sell their piggies in a poke. But lots of teachers really appreciate what I have done and continue to do.

Mashabell · 27/01/2013 08:08

I agree with mrz that David Crystal is a safer bet than masha as far as the history of the English language is concerned.
He makes several false claims about English spelling.
One is that English spelling is complex because the 43 or so English sounds have to be spelt with just 26 letters.

This is completely wrong.
Learning to spell is English difficult, because nearly all of its sounds are spelt in several ways (e.g. speak, speech, shriek, weird, even...) with a total of 205 different spellings for its 44 sounds.
Because he has become a well-known figure, people actually believe that rubbish, without bothering to check.

Mashabell · 27/01/2013 08:20

Crystal also claims that only 20-25% of English words contain unpredictable letters.

Two major analyses (Hannah and Hannah in the 1950s and Carney in 1990s), and my own analysis of the 7,000 most used English words, have found that 50-55% do so.

If u want to believe what Crystal claims, that's up to u, but it's wrong.

mrz · 27/01/2013 08:28

No one is pretending that English isn't complex masha but as many teachers on TES point out it isn't the problem you claim it to be, if it were the number of pupils experiencing difficulties would be much higher than they are.
You have your own agenda and blame English spellings for every ill in the world ...I seem to recall you claiming that spelling was responsible for the 2011 riots Hmm

Missbopeep · 27/01/2013 09:02

Masha

There was no "trick" involved in saying who you were.

A quick google of masha B , English spelling, would have thrown you up- you've been all over national media including Radio 4 where you said Libby Purves gave you a hard time. I am glad she did- she's an Oxford English graduate and knows dare I say more than you.

I query your expertise because now you say you didn't speak English until you were 14- so ti's not your mother tongue? How you taught it without a degree in the subject is odd too- I expect it was a private school?

I don't know what you mean by wanting to "educate" people. Surely if this were so, you would be giving helpful tips to enable children to learn English as it is- rather than campaigning for a reform of the spelling sysem- which is what you want.

No?

We all know that many English words are not phonic but that is thee joy of having a diverse culture.

it doesn't make it impossible for children toleanr. Or are you saying it does?

I used to learn Italian with a teacher who is Italian but who is also now a teacher of children with dyslexia- she has the SpLD Diploma and a degree. She would be the first to say that English spelling is hard compared to Italian- but you know what- she has learned it perfectly and teaching her pupils to do the same- so why can't everyone else?

I don't agree with what you are doing because i think it's a slur on our heritage. And you campaign is pointless- but you are using all opportunites to promote the " cause"- inc. MN.

Missbopeep · 27/01/2013 09:05

One is that English spelling is complex because the 43 or so English sounds have to be spelt with just 26 letters.
This is completely wrong.

What do you mean by "wrong"? In whose opinion? Yours?

So that means we all have to change it?

Missbopeep · 27/01/2013 09:07

Finally Masha- I'd expect you to use the correct spelling or "you"- not text speak- or is this another part of your campaign- making a point?