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Original poster

Forced baby behaviour?

439 replies

learnandsay · 22/10/2012 10:12

Are simplistic phonics books good, bad or neutral? If a Reception child can already read Ladybird stories such as Three Little Pigs, Where the Wild Things Are, Dr Seuss, etc, etc, etc but they're bringing home apparently the whole ORT 1+ range comprising of nothing but CVC words which present no challenge and no learning opportunity either, is reading them:

(1) a waste of time, reading time is precious, doesn't it make more sense to spend it on reading words which present a learning opportunity?

(2) potentially leading towards reading becoming uninteresting

(3) promoting ignorance - if the child can read the names of countries already the child could be reading sentences like: The Nile is the longest river in the world, instead of sentences like Dot got a pot and Bot got Dot's pot. Pat pat pat, tap tap tap.

In summary, would the time be better spent reading something useful?

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drcrab · 23/10/2012 19:31

If it's any help, my ds's school sends home a phonics book every day (swopped over every couple of days) and we get a library book every week which he chooses (tend to be proper books like the Julia Donaldson types or others).

We have many proper books at home and he's been read them since birth. He really enjoys being able to read to us now and as a treat, he gets to read to his 2 year old sister! Grin

I get where you are coming from but I really wouldn't sweat what to write in the diary. It's just to keep track of where your child is amongst her peers and to make sure that she's reading.

We have doctor duck at home today - have no idea about bands till now. I guess this is good that he's reading this book now because up till 6 weeks ago he wasn't able to read beyond his name, cat and dog!

ninah · 23/10/2012 19:33

you can share exciting books as well as reading decodable ones, though
op you seem obsessed by split digraphs

mrz · 23/10/2012 19:37

As a first time mother I wasn't fussed either libelulle ... wished I had been more clued up for my son's sake.
As a teacher I often get "He/She's learnt his/her book" from parents and just as often I hear teachers ask "Have you learnt your book?" so yes some children are being taught to memorise whole books.

Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 19:39

Ninah, we're reading simple long books at the moment and split di's are our most common problem. I haven't tackled it yet. It's the next thing on my list. We're big library goers and live in a booky house, our extended families are booky too. We like proper books much more.

OP posts:
mrz · 23/10/2012 19:40

If you can read nice, mice but not rice and twice you clearly can read some split digraphs but not others
Hmm you do know it is the same split digraph in all four words don't you?

Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 19:46

Right, but the child is using other methods to read the first two words, and then she sees the second two words and reads 'risse' and 'twisse.' So she doesn't approach them consistently or even know what they are. When this is pointed out to her she will do. (I probably more correctly meant she can read some occurrences of digraphs and not other occurrences, even of the same one.)

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mrz · 23/10/2012 19:49

So she isn't actually reading any digraphs although she can read some words that contain digraphs ...there is a difference in that if she could read the split spelling for the sound "ie" she would be able to apply this in any word she met rather than just in words she knows.

outtolunchagain · 23/10/2012 19:50

For what it's worth , as the mother of three older boys, all of whom read voraciously including the one with SpLd , I would leave all the technical parts of learning to read to school and concentrate on developing her love of books and the written word in general.It is that love which will ensure that you have a 9 year old or a 13 year old or an 18 year old reader and not the ability to decode a split digraph .

libelulle · 23/10/2012 19:55

One has inherent meaning, I guess, and the other doesn't. Phonics IS mechanistic, that's the point isn't it? But that has downsides, especially if it's taught badly.

Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 19:57

Yup, that's precisely correct. She would be able to, yes.

Outtolunch, there really isn't anything that I love more than teaching her. That's not going to change any time soon.

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Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 19:58

I would say though that now I do it because I want to. There was a time when I thought I'd have to.

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mrz · 23/10/2012 20:00

All bad teaching has a downside even the best intended

outtolunchagain · 23/10/2012 20:01

I understand that learn,and that's great,but just make sure that you hand on the greatest gift and that is how wonderful books are .

My boys , and their parentsWink read not because they enjoy the process of reading but because they love the content and the worlds that books and newspapers and magazines etc open up .

teacherwith2kids · 23/10/2012 20:03

So you teach her because you love to - why is there a battle with the school? Why your first post? I love to teach my DCs science, and craft, and history, and gardening ... but I don't then get all huffy because the science they do at school is not 'useful in moving them forward'. It's all science.... the same as all reading is reading, and as your school is clearly teaching via phonics, and ensuring that the basics are secure, I suspect that when the time comes along (shortly) for them to teach her split digraphs they will do that properly too. If you want to before that, fine. But it's not the school doing it 'wrong' by doing things in an orderly and systematic manner, any more than it is 'wrong' you doing it because you love reading with her.

Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 20:14

I think the battle was because I was getting frustrated because there was so much to say and little comments seemed inadequate. I'm watching her work out words like 'probably', 'tomorrow,' and 'Tuesday' and she's being sent home with

Dot got a pot and Bot got Dot's pot.

And I'm thinking, that's not my daughter's reading!! Why am I commenting on Dot's got a pot when my daughter has just figured out 'We bought our geranium on Tuesday.'?

And I'd been asked not to write about the geranium book in the diary because that's not a school book. But I must write in the diary. Well, if I'm only allowed to write about Dot's got a pot then I'd rather write nothing at all.

But in the end we got it worked out because now my daughter is writing in the diary and the world is good again.

OP posts:
mrz · 23/10/2012 20:19

Is the teacher OK with your daughter writing the comments? My reading records have a separate page for the children to record their response to books but I still like parents/adults to make a brief comment.

Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 20:22

I don't know. I didn't realise that it might be a problem. I'll ask her. Thanks, mrz.

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teacherwith2kids · 23/10/2012 20:28

We allow some children to write the comments because they are more able to read and write than their parents.... but I digress!

mrz · 23/10/2012 20:30

in reception?

CinnabarRed · 23/10/2012 20:34

DS1 has just started YR. When we met his teacher before the summer holidays, we mentioned that (unlike some of his peers) he hadn't been to nursery or been taught to read. We asked whether we should start him on reading over the summer.

The teacher specifically asked us not to do so; she said too many parents make a balls up of it and don't get the foundations right. She would much rather have a child who needs to be taught than one who has to be 'untaught' bad habits.

Not saying you've done that, of course, OP.

I think your DD's teacher is - rightly - concentrating on the children with poor habits or no reading experience at all. And you would be very selfish indeed if you begrudged that.

Not saying you're doing that, of course, OP.

teacherwith2kids · 23/10/2012 20:35

No, not in Reception....their older siblings do it for them, mainly.... just making a slightly flippant comment as I have been a bit grumpy on this thread!

simpson · 23/10/2012 20:36

Tbh I am in a similar situation in that DD is reading pretty well but gets yellow level books (jolly phonics ones) from school.

The problem I have is that she does not want to read them....(bribery is used ATM).

WRT the reading diary, DD's teacher has said not to write anything in it except for school books ( fair enough) and I usually write things like DD read well, DD decoded all the words and answered questions on the story, DD retold the story in her own words etc etc...

TBH I don't spend much time on them (the school books) and would rather DD read whatever she wants... Sometimes she chooses Bob Bug ( we have the songbirds pack) and other nights she chooses to read a chapter from a book like Frog and Toad...

To me it is more important to nurture her love of reading iyswim...

AlwaysInWonder · 23/10/2012 20:37

The way I look at it:

  • There are plenty of ways to learn to read. You can do the phonics, you can learn to recognize words, you do a mixture of both or you can have a child that will learn on their own with their own means.
  • However, doing phonics isn't just about learning to read. It's also about learning to write and to recognize sounds in a word (that's the reason why they still do phonics in Y6. Not because in all these years, that many children still can't read but because it's supporting spelling rather than reading).

So I can see how your dd for example might be able to read at a higher level but it will still do her a lot of good to go through the phonics in class and even through the lower levels for phonics books (for the spelling).

Re levels, in our school, they work by 'boxes'. Because they have books from different systems, reading bands etc..., the teachers have grouped them into boxes (60 of them!) of increasing difficulty. So one time you might have a level 7 book and then the next a blue band and then something else. Could it that they have a similar system in your dd's school?

Finally, I think you are right when you say it doesn't really even out. I remember thinking exactly along that sort of lines when my dcs were little. Surely, if a child knows how to read in YR, they are in a better place than the other and will be able to do better/move more quickly right?
Well my dcs are now in Y3&4. dc1 was very bright, in advance etc... and still is. dc2 was well behind. At the end of Y1, he was just going over the level2. Now he is in Y3, has caught up and is above average. That's what people means when they said that it averages out

Original poster
learnandsay · 23/10/2012 20:37

Sorry, Cinna, you're speaking up for my teacher but I didn't quite catch your point.

Is she checking all children's reading by having everyone read Dot's got a pot?

Or are you saying something else?

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Floggingmolly · 23/10/2012 20:38

There was so much to say and little comments seemed inadequate.
What on earth was there to say, that you had to be specifically asked to stick to the point?
It sounds like your comments far exceeded the actual words in the book, which is, of course, ridiculous.
Maybe your dd could decode that instead?

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