'never say no to a grown up'

[RillaBlythe]

This is what my DD (in Reception) says she was told in school. Am I off course here but is that actually NOT a good message for kids?

that is incredibly disempowering, I agree

Argh dd2 flailing arm posted too soon! I can totally understand that the teacher needs the kids to obey her & she probably made the statement (if she did) in relation to the classroom, but I haven't really had a 'big scary world' chat with dd1 yet, & I wouldn't have included that in my message, IF that's the context it was used in. Just wondering what other thoughts were.

Depends on the context; If it was a teacher (or any other adult tbh) asking her to do something that she ought to (hang her coat up, please don't scuff your shoes etc), then I think it's perfectly fine. All part of respecting your elders and all that...

Yes MJ I can see the rationale in using it on that moment, not sure I agree with it even then to be honest, but my concern would be over the wider implications if kids are taught that as a general rule.

Hope my posts make sense as as Bfing dd2 to sleep & she keeps wriggling!

I'm going to be really blunt and say that I think it's a shit message; and it has been discussed on various threads on MN recently, particularly in the context of MNers remembering as girls and younger women being creepily verbally abused, indecently assaulted and sexually assaulted and not really knowing what to say or do.

Unfortunately many MNers have recollections of the creepiness and abuse coming from people in positions of authority over us. Many of us resolved to speak regularly to our DCs with a strong but loving message about boundaries and keeping safe. It's a very difficult area, though.

'never say no to a grown up'

Of course that was a stupid thing for the teacher to say. 'Don't argue when a teacher gives you an instruction' may be what she meant but if any one of those children gets the idea that they should always aquiese to an adult then she has said something harmful.

Say no if anyone wants to touch you in a way you don't like
say no if someone you don't know offers you a lift
say no if someone wants you do do something but 'its to be our little secret'
say no if someone offers you drugs (ok, that's for a bit older, I hope)

Pesky wriggly babies!

Hmmm... providing the child is asked in the right way (ie in the same way that i would like to be asked- politely) I think the teacher is perfectly right to expect a child to do as they're told, particularly if it was with reagards to classroom management, safety or good manners...

Sorry missed the last couple of posts.

You're both absolutely right in the context of a child understanding that a child has a right to say no to anything that they feel isn't right. Does that extend to (Teacher) "Excuse me (insert name) will you pick your coat up off the floor please?" (Child) "No", then no it doesn't. That's just a child being cheeky.

Classroom behaviour was always (rightly) covered in our home-school contracts in Primary School, and this covered politeness, tidiness, not using inappropriate words or behaviour and never hitting, teasing or bullying.

Very different from 'never say no to a grown-up'.

I think it makes it doubly hard for a child to know 'what doesn't feel right' if they are being taught to believe that they shouldn't say No to an adult, IYSWIM.

No not "because I said so because I'm an adult" but "Can you pick your coat up because it might trip somebody up and as an adult I know this and as a child you probably don't understand this". I'm also still a firm believer that classroom behaviour (thanks for the correct term LineRunner) needs to be exerted on the teacher's terms.

I agree the use of language the teacher uses is important. I know from my dd that her life in reception class is full of children either being her best friend or not being her best friend today in varying degrees of confused mutterings. If I genuinelly believed the teacher was declaring "adults are always right/ never say no ever to an adult" then I'd speak to him/ her.

I think that's exactly how it should be done WereTricksPotter.

This thread came up in Active Convos in juxtaposition to the Savile chat thread part 4. That probably shows more clearly than anything else why the bald message is wrong.

I hope your DD was paraphrasing what was actually said to her.

It needs to be more specific. Its a sweeping statement and IMO is a very bad idea.

Hi, meditrina. That's quite spooky. I'm thinking, even is the OP's DD was paraphrasing, it's the still the message she seems to have taken away with her. But it's really good she talked to her mum about it.

yes - I tried to say "well, you should do what your teacher asks you to do, but sometimes you don't need to do what an adult says - what about if you had seen the person stealing my bike (my bike was stolen last week) & they had asked you to keep it secret? you would be doing the right thing if you said no to them & told me that they had my bike" God I am out of my depth already & she's only 4!

rilla, that was a good way to handle it - sounds like you're in your depth to me.

It is really, really difficult. Just keep talking, and having those conversations. If it's normal for your DD to open up to you, then most likely she always will if she ever needs to, to ask for advice, or tell you about a problem or a worry.

I did give my DCs the message that sadly some adults (and other children) could represent a danger, but that I would always keep them safe as long as they always let me know where they were and what was happening at school and in their lives. (With hugs.)

Obviously you have to ease the foot off the pedal as they grow older.

I think you did a good job of explaining it to her. Sleepless nights and pooey nappies were a piece of cake compared to the minefield that we're facing now!

I tell mine - 2 and 4, no-one is allowed to touch their private places (vagina and willy), not even me and daddy - except me and daddy or another grown up can wipe their bottoms.

They know not to go with anyone - not even Aunty X or X (sister and family friend) unless they (DCs) have spoken to me or daddy or whatever grown up is looking after them.

These conversations have been as natural as teaching them about holding hands on crossing road.

They need to be made aware of these things.

Never say no to a grown up would probably result in "cheek" from my 4 year old.

As far as I am concerned the minute they start going anywhere without me or their dad, they need to be taught to protect themselves in age appropriate terms.

I hope you've had the other part of the 'talk' about how dd shouldn't refuse to do things she is asked to do at school, which is obviously what had happened.

alcofrolic actually I don't think that is what happened - I wondered that too, but she said that the whole class was told it during carpet time. Generally she is very compliant & very invested in pleasing her teachers, I would be extremely surprised to hear she didn't pick up her coat etc. But I am open to that possibility if that is what the teacher tells me

Thank you for your feedback everyone - helped me work out that my discomfort isn't me being anti-authoritarian or something! I am going to ask the teacher what exactly was said tomorrow, partly to satisfy my curiosity, & partly as I do think it is a shit message for them to have taken home as my DD did. I like LineRunner's differentiation between the class rules & the "never say no" guff.