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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

What is a good pass mark in the league tables?

31 replies

benetint · 25/08/2012 21:15

I read on another thread that someone thought 70% ks2 level 4 was rubbish, but around me most of the schools have less than this. I just wanted to know what a good result was and also if people looked at the level 5 results too? Many thanks

OP posts:

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exoticfruits · 26/08/2012 07:51

All the ones near me are over 90. I don't bother with looking at level 5.

exoticfruits · 26/08/2012 07:59

70% is too low - more than a quarter have failed to pass the minimum level expected for their age.

crazygracieuk · 26/08/2012 08:12

Ours has over 50% getting level 5 and over 90% getting level 4.

IndigoBell · 26/08/2012 08:27

74% is the average (according to the DCSF league tables)

So anything in the 70s is very normal and neither good nor bad.

21% getting L5 is average.

But I don't look at those results I look at the low / middle / high achievers:

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=GOR&superview=pri&view=aat&set=6&sort=&ord=&tab=15&no=H&pg=1

What you really care about is how the students do - broken down by how they should do!

Low attainers refer to their KS1 grade:
Low less then L2
Middle = L2
High = L3

So if lots of low attainers get a L4 then the school is doing well.
How many of their high attainers get a L5?

seeker · 26/08/2012 08:32

It depends on the intake. You need to look at "expected level of progress" rath than the actual figures.

EdithWeston · 26/08/2012 08:34

If the typical attainment means over a quarter of children are failing to reach the expected level, then this suggests a lot of underachieving schools.

All pupils, except those with SEN or very recent new arrivals, should be reaching level 4.

IndigoBell · 26/08/2012 09:05

But more than a quarter of kids do have SEN.

And lots and lots have arrived recently enough to have poor English, but not so recently that their scores are disqualified from the league tables.

IndigoBell · 26/08/2012 10:19

This is my advice:

You need to work with school.

You need to think about what your DD needs.

Then you need to think about who can provide it.

Then you need to work out how to make that happen.

Don't expect school to either know what help she needs, or be able to provide it. They may, they may not.

A label of Dyslexia does not tell school what your child needs. The EP report should, but may not.

Even if the EP report does say what your child needs, the EP may or may not be right.

You can do far more for your DD than school ever could. So don't think of dyslexia as school's responsibility or problem.

IndigoBell · 26/08/2012 10:20

- posted on totally the wrong thread

Original poster

benetint · 28/08/2012 23:30

Thanks so much for your help everyone

OP posts:

NellyJob · 28/08/2012 23:34

it's all such a nonsense though isn't it?
i personally know of one mother who was asked to keep her child away on the day of the tests, cos the poor kid would bring down the results. I doubt that is an isolated incident.

IndigoBell · 29/08/2012 07:44

If the child doesn't sit the test it brings the league tables down far more because the child is still counted in the results, as below a level 4.

However if a child is working below a level 3 they don't have to sit the test. And if they're not going to sit the test the school might have decided it was kinder to the child for them not to go to school - rather than them going to school and it being obvious o everyone he wasn't sitting the test.

exoticfruits · 29/08/2012 07:53

IndigoBell is right- they need the DC in school for the test.
You have to find out why they have low results- DS's school never came top of the league table because they were good with SN children and so had quite a few.

SunflowersSmile · 29/08/2012 07:56

Like Seeker says you have to look at the intake. You have to look at 'starting point' of children and how they proceed from that. If all children from whatever starting point make good levels of progress for them- then it is a good school. If an able child can achieve well it is a good school.

My child goes to a school in an area where it is a massive achievement to exceed national average over level 4s. I am so impressed with the school and its high aspirations for all. Yet on paper op I think you would dismiss it- it would be your loss.....

SunflowersSmile · 29/08/2012 07:59

Sorry op- being bit harsh on you. Should have aimed the 'your loss' to some other posters!

whereishome · 29/08/2012 07:59

Oh, this forum gets better! Just last night I was trawling through the same sats and wondering about them. So is 94% at level 4 and 26% ok or not great? And what does the low/high achievers actually mean? My ds is very academic (but will never make a dancer ; )) and I need to find a school that will stretch him. He has been so frustrated at his last school
So which are the most important columns of data we should be looking at? Hope people out there are more clued up on this than me!

IndigoBell · 29/08/2012 08:07

I already explained what low / middle / high achieves are - they're the score they got at end of KS1.

If you think your child is a high achiever, then you should look at how the high achieves do.

I always look at how the low achieves do, because I think it's a very good guide to what the school values, what it's pastoral care is like.

seeker · 29/08/2012 08:09

Absolutely. It says more about a school to me if the low achieves make the "expected level of progress" than if the high achievers exceed it. I speak as the owner of high achievers.

BooksandBrunch · 30/08/2012 14:43

Leading up to the exams, the dc at my ds school were given a book from smiths and told to revise - a laid back approach that may suit many. End Result for Level 5 = English 8% Maths 20%

His friends school were given papers daily and for homework too - a drilling approach (or some would say repetition) that once again you may or not agree with. Result level 5 = English 67% Maths 83%.

Fro the level 6 paper my ds school had 2 lessons. Friend school had a specialist teacher brought in 3 times a week.

Were one set of kids smarter than the other? I think not.

Whatever you agree with the results say a lot.

BooksandBrunch · 30/08/2012 14:46

Oh and my ds did get the level 5 in all subjects - possibly because I too went to smiths and bought him past papers to do daily (which you can also get online).

seeker · 30/08/2012 14:54

"Oh and my ds did get the level 5 in all subjects - possibly because I too went to smiths and bought him past papers to do daily (which you can also get online)."

Or possibly because that was the level he was expected to achieve? In most cases, SATs make absolutely no difference to the child, but make a big difference to the school- a crap school can get away with murder if parents do this sort of thing.

epeesarepointythings · 30/08/2012 20:05

Books My DD got L6 in all subjects and we did bugger all extra at home - and the school only did a handful of extra sessions for her and the other children who were going for the L6 because they were due to close (middle school, system going to two-tier) and all the teachers were stressed out due to possibly losing their jobs.

And yes, based on her KS1 results she should have got L5 at least so in her case the school were clearly doing their job well and then some.

Rosebud05 · 30/08/2012 20:38

The raw % of L4s and L5s don't tell you much at all. The progress measures are more useful. If 90% of children start in a school at well below expected levels, yet 70% achieve L4, the school is doing fairly well. If 90% of children start at a school at average or above levels, and 70% of those children get a L4, the school clearly is not.

SunflowersSmile · 31/08/2012 07:02

I would say very well Rosebud if 90percent 'well below average at start of school and 'yet 70percent achieve L4' in SATs....
The big picture has to be looked at - not just the bottom line.

Rosebud05 · 31/08/2012 07:29

Possibly, although schools are put into SM for these sorts of figures.

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