What is a good pass mark in the league tables?

[benetint]

I read on another thread that someone thought 70% ks2 level 4 was rubbish, but around me most of the schools have less than this. I just wanted to know what a good result was and also if people looked at the level 5 results too? Many thanks

That of course would be fair for the school with children going in at 'above average' levels. [Rosebud].

epeesarepointythings Sorry to be so brutally honest, but why am I struggling to believe you? Are you yourself a teacher, your best friend or are you related to one hence the need to get a bit defensive (I know teachers love to close ranks)? From my involvement with quite a few primary schools, just like everything else, there are crap teachers and there are great ones. Equally I've experienced appalling schools with ineffective leaders and brilliant ones, with schools where the majority don't even speak English along with their parents and yet still had a high proportion of kids passing the Level 6. I so happen to know the headmistress of that school and there was more than a handful of input. She and her staff worked incredibly hard and made no excuses.

On that note, you have failed also to quantify the 'handful' of lessons you are talking (and try not to exaggerate {:0). Was it more than 2 as in my ds's school's case?

The level 6 Maths paper consisted of Algebra for example. Am I right by saying that you are suggesting that there were kids in your dd class who were miraculously able to solve equations such as 8+y=7+5y and were able to find the value of y with a 'handful' of support? If you told me there are perhaps one and at push, two Einstein-top-Mensa-kids in the class then perhaps (and that's a big, big perhaps) I would say it was possible.

Furthermore, my ds's friend from the successful school I mentioned passed both Wilsons and Wallingtons Grammar school, every single private school exam he applied for and offered academic scholarships from each, yet even he said the Maths was tough and the English L6 eyewatering. Yet you know of a bunch of kids who passed it with a 'handful' of support. May I guess that they were mighty big hands?

@Seeker: With children jumping off tables every Monday with the resident support teacher in tow, who would often not have photocopied enough practise papers for the level 5 group so thought it fine to give them whatever she had left over, I'm afraid I don't think he would have achieved what he was expected of him, no. A school where a teacher think it's fine to put a child in a reading group without her or an assistant even hearing him read is is not an environment were you can expect even able kids to reach their potential. Besides, his best friend was expected to achieve all level 5 based on ks1 results and what few papers they did do and ended up with 2 x L4's and 1xL5. Moreover although some secondary schools re-test to establish sets, many secondary schools, such as the one my ds is starting on Tuesday, decide their sets based on the sats results with the top two taught at the same level of grammar schools with latin also, so although I couldn't give a hoot from the schools perspective what level he achived because I hated it, I had zero intention of cutting off my nose to spite my face and wanted to ensure that my ds achieved what he was expected to achieve. Besides, how can knowledge ever be a waste of time or more benefit the school than your own child? Not my view at all.

epeesarepointythings Can you quantify a 'handful' (without exaggerating if possible:0)? Was it more than 2 as in my ds's school? I would suspect they were they mighty big hands that were able to get a bunch of 10 and 11yr olds through a level 6 exam with questions such as 8+y=7+5y find the value of y, multiplying out brackets and Trial and improvement to name but a few? My ds best fiend who went to the higher performing state school I mentioned passed 2 grammar school tests as well as all the private school exams he went for with academic scholarships offered for each and even he said that the Level 6 English was eyewatering and the Maths was tough. Yet your dd school had a bunch of kids pass it with a just a couple of lessons? Extraordinary! I must admit, over the years, I've leant to ignore what parents say about how much they do with their kids as it would so defy and contradict the percentage of kids Mensa have on their books and would render the private school system totally unnecessary with parents who simply have money to burn.

Besides scientifically proven, logic states that if you do one thing more than another person, you will become better at it. May that be from additional parental support, (which has proven accelerates a child's learning) and or great teachers. And from my own experience of having to move my ds several times at primary school level, there are great teachers and their our crap ones. A friend of mine who is a headmistress of a school where the majority of children start without English being their first language had over twenty kids pass the level 6, through hard work and determination. In the wrong environment or defeatist preconceived ideas, those kids would have been written off.

epeesarepointythings Apologies for the similar post. I did it early this morning and couldn't see it when I looked this morning so in my tiredness thought I hadn't sent it:)

Books the top set my DD was in was doing this kind of algebra by the end of Yr5. This is in a really ordinary state school, BTW - we are not in a grammar school area so no 11+ issues. They did however happen to be a very strong year cohort.

She only had additional lessons in English, a grand total of 6 half hour sessions in the run-up to the SATs (3 per week during lunch hour for the children selected to do the L^ paper). I'd count that as a handful, wouldn't you?

I never said that a bunch of kids passed L6 though - my DD was one of 3 who passed in English and one of 2 in maths. As I said, her school is an ordinary state school in a non-grammar area. Their intake is very mixed (think a lot of socio-economic deprivation and parents who don't give a stuff) but they support the children very well. DD said she found the papers tough, but enjoyed doing them.

I have done nothing additional with her at home. Nothing. At. All. I make sure she does her homework, I make sure that she understands what she is doing, but I do not purchase additional practise materials for her, nor do I make her do extra work. I don't understand why you doubt this - she is very bright, and has had very good teachers. I'd have been happy for her to not do the L6 paper, but she was asked and she wanted the challenge. I realise that she has been very lucky, both in the brain she was born with, in the teachers she has had and in having a stable and supportive home environment.

I have no doubt that practice at home will make more kids pass L5. However, I question the necessity - I know that DD1 will be sitting CAT tests very early in the autumn term, because the school she is going to knows that a lot of their new intake will have been drilled into scoring high on SATs.

And no, I am not going to do any CAT practice with her either. I'd rather know what her real standard of education and knowledge is.

I'm not a teacher, but I am a qualified trainer with knowledge of how people learn, which may have helped my DD in terms of the support she's had at home with her homework - this purely in terms of me being able to encourage her to edit her own work, identify and correct error and study effectively. And yes, I admit that has probably given her an advantage, but it isn't the same as getting in worksheets and doing hours of extra work.

@epeesarepointythings (sorry I've been away) I class 'no help' as in child going to school and being taught in a class of 30 kids and besides the two 30 minute sessions the law dictates, comes home and does absolutely nothing else with a parent, tutor or otherwise. Rest assured, a high percentage of state schools kids are doing just that. Indeed, reports show that the quality of prior teaching, opportunities to learn and parental support will undoubtedly affect pupils? performance on all educational tests as opposed to innate ability (need to stop kidding ourselves).

Furthermore, in depth scientific tests were conducted on Vanessa Mae, the top violinist who was convinced it was her natural ability that made her great and not the fact that her mother pushed her, yet the tests proved her greatness came about through the sheer numbers of hours that she practised as opposed to some innate ability. When the number of hours were in fact calculated, it was compared to some of the worlds musical greats who too had simply practised more than anyone else.

In any case, your last paragraph proves my point, whichever route you chose to give her an advantage and advantage in how to go back, check and edit your work which would help to get a few extra marks, was more than the 'nothing' in your original claim.

Moreover, not only was my own ds taught the basics of algebra in yesr 5 by me, 6 lessons is a whole darn lot if you ask me.