Concerned about dd's progress in year 2

[Schooloflife]

Hello all, newish to mumsnet so please bear with me.

I am concerned about my dd's progress at her very good prep school, in sept she will be entering year 2, she is a bright child but she failed her phonics screening test with a mark of 25 (pass mark is 32) I am a constant worrier so talk to her teacher if I ever feel concerned about her progress and the problem is I always seem to be told she is on target for her age, very able reader, very keen to please, extremely responsive to rewards system the teacher started. But when she didn't pass the test it's left me slightly concerned about how much time she is getting in class (class of 15). The class has a group of very clever children ie timetables to 12 in year 1 etc..
I know these children get a lot of attention from teacher and it's always children from that group who get picked for talking in assemblies, taking register to reception, and all that sort of stuff that kids get upset about ( I know that makes me sound silly).
So despite of being told dd is doing fine I am not happy with her teacher and truly feel she is not getting enough attention in class she will have same teacher next year so not feeling very confident about dd's progress in year 2 and especially worried about sats tests.

I do a lot of reading and number work at home and dd is an able child.

I have been to 3 different tutors this summer for assessment of dd to see if she is where she should be, they have all come back and said she is at right level so my question is should I Be worried about her teacher because she didn't pass the test and should I write to the head teacher?

If she really is at the expected level, why did she fail the test? The school has good reputation but I worry if dd will get lost in class with these extremely able children.

I worry about education a lot because I wasn't very good at school and didn't have parents who really understood education.

Any advice or comments appreciated.

1stly I think the phonics test is rubbish.
my dd just comleted same school year 1 going into year 2 i have worries as shes in state class of 30.

But they do stream them into ability on certain tables and the ones who need extra help do get it as my dd got put in small phonics group with ta to do blending sounds its helped with her reading.

if 3tutors have said shes fine.

in state they follow national currciculum levlels at keystage 1 , private dont so hard to make a comparision unless you got some old sats papers but wouldent be as accurate as teacher.

mine got 1b which is slightly below average.
a1 and 2c is avargae/expected levl
2a/2b at end of year 1 is above average.

but if its private you paying for it you need to feel happy and satisfied.

sometimes its about finding the school thats right fit for child.

Actually spoke to mum at paty her son does kumon as hes goes to very academic junior. if he was at other local primaries he be perveived to be very able but because theres lots of clever ones hes doing his best to keep up their ability is raising the lower ones if that makes sense.

Is you daughter happy? i be tempted to go in have a chat and see how this year goes .

How are they teaching reading at her school? Are they using a proper phonics programme, or something different? Do you feel that she is reading reasonably well? Is it possible that she has learned to read using a different method, so didn't perform well in that particular test, although she can actually read?

Thanks for replies

Mam29: we didn't get the scores you mentioned but they would have definitely be helpful. The school follows the national curriculum too. I wonder if they will give me her ability as a level as you mentioned, I could ask.

Achickencalledkorma: they started with jolly phonics and I think they are teaching phonics programme but having said that they send books home3 times a week and they are from all different reading schemes and not all phonics- decoding style books.
I know dd is a good reader and reads everyday but if she's not getting through the government set tests it makes me feel a bit anxious.

OP don't get too hung up on the phonics test, from what I can read about it it is bobbins.

Primary teachers (tho I am not a primary teacher) seem to think it is rather pointless, another Govt box-ticking exercise, eg including made-up words which lots of children I know would go eh??? at rather than reading.

If you are happy with the school otherwise then fine; don't put too much pressure on yr DD tho, remember she is only 6, have her repeatedly (three times this summer?) assessed is probably not necessary.

Thanks clary. I know the 3 assessments are a bit over the top but I was looking for a tutor at the same time. I think I'm generally happy with the school, I just dont want dd to fall behind.

From everything I've heard the phonics test is not to be relied upon so I will chill out.

From everything I've heard the phonics test is not to be relied upon so I will chill out.

The phonics check was devised to check if children had been taught the letter/sound correspondences they should have learned by the end of Y1 and if they can use this correspondence knowledge to accurately work out any words they encounter, familiar or unfamiliar, which contain those correspondences. It is a good check, carefully designed to pick up possible problems early so that the school can do something about them.

There might be a perfectly good explanation for why your dd missed the expected standard by so much but I wouldn't advise chilling out until you have got to the bottom of it with the school. Did they give you any idea of what mistakes she made? Have they said if they are going to give her any extra support next year to ensure that her phonic knowledge reaches the expected level? Don't be fobbed off with 'She's doing fine' type answers. Get the detail!

It is not uncommon for children to appear to be 'good readers' in the early stages but if the foundational phonic knowledge is not firmly in place they can falter when texts become more complex and the pictures less informative.

I'd only chill out if I were absolutely sure that my child's phonic knowledge and skills were good and that poor performance on the phonics check was an uncharacteristic blip.

I think the problem with the phonics test is that one is just told pass or fail, not what the school is going to do and what you can do to help your child with phonics in Y2 should they fail.

Its marketed as a test for schools, but if parents are given the results then they want to know exactly what steps will be taken/they can take to help get their child up to the required level. Yes, flag an issue, but don't leave parents in the dark about how to help their child improve.

I expect the educational book sellers will be having a field day with insecure parents buying phonics flashcards ( which seem to be slated on here ) and the like.

I understood that independent schools couldn't formally take part in the phonics screening check It seems odd the school has chosen to administer and report the test to parents.

"Independent schools cannot formally participate in the assessment and reporting
arrangements."

It isn't marketed as a test for schools (although hopefully as a result of the check some schools will improve how they teach phonics). It is a check of individual children to identify those children who may be having difficulties so that support can be put in place as early as possible. It is a well established and reliable method that has been used by Educational Psychologists and other educational professionals for decades.

Please don't get hung up on the reading test results. At our school (parent & Governor) it was found that the higher ability children didn't pass when they ought to have as they did not blend the sounds sufficiently, they were too busy doing the reading they know very well how to do. I would guess that this has been the same (more or less) up and down the country.

I don't know anything about independent schools, but did they give you details of her progress in everything else?

No it hasn't been the same up and down the country Totallytallbird in many schools the higher ability children scored 40/40 ... it's a good excuse though.

Mazied: so I won't chill out just yet but as I said I'm not that pleased with the teacher so should I write to the head teacher in order to get something done? I understand that the test is obviously to highlight the children who need extra help And I will definitely bring it up with the teacher again too( at the end of term when I received result I asked the teacher why dd did so badly and she told me she wasn't sure how much she trusted the test).

Taffeta: I've spent a lot of money on workbooks, reading chest, tutoring so completely get what you are saying and that's on top of school fees

Mrz: yes our school has made the children take the test, but they didn't tell us before hand that there was such a test or I might have tried to prepare dd a little more. I am surprised my dd did so badly any advice on how to help her aside from reading loads we do that every night already?

Have to get to sainsburys now but look forward to catching up later this afternoon.

"Mrz: yes our school has made the children take the test, but they didn't tell us before hand that there was such a test or I might have tried to prepare dd a little more."

I think that's why the parents aren't told about the test, Schooloflife. So that it shows how effectively she has learned phonics. It isn't a judgement on your child's intelligence. It is simply a tool to see whether the child needs extra support in learning the building blocks of reading.

The test takes 5 mins and shouldn't require any preparation other than effective teaching over reception and Y1. It identifies those children who perhaps need some extra input in blending and recognising the sounds and some of the alternative ways of spelling them. I think the early identification of gaps in learning is a good thing as they can be corrected quickly rather than suddenly finding a child is struggling later.

I asked the teacher why dd did so badly and she told me she wasn't sure how much she trusted the test).

That's a slightly worrying statement! It makes me wonder how reading is taught at the school.

School of life. I like maizieD's response. You say that her prep school is very good. I am not a teacher, but I would hope that any 'very good' school that I was paying thousands of pounds a year for, and has class sizes of only 15, would be able to deliver a sound knowledge of phonics in most children by the end of year 1, in the absence of any SN. Or to let you know well before the end of the year if your dd was having specific problems. As an independent school, they didn't have to administer the test, and yet they chose to which suggests that they believed they had taught the children adequately. And yet your dd scored 25 which is very well below the pass mark. And they think this is ok and they're not so far doing anything about it?? I would definitely push for some answers and an action plan, and if you're not satisfied think very carefully about the next step. My intention is not to cause you anxiety, but I don't want you to 'chill out' as advised, when it seems to me that something somewhere is not right.

You could try asking the teacher if she could go through with you exactly which parts of the test dd found difficult? One of the reasons that many teachers do not give it much credit is that it features 'nonsense' words which the children have to blend (ie. theesp). This is part of the Letters/Sounds phonics too, but in my experience as a teacher, even my most able children who can read perfectly well, struggle with these on the test as they are trying to turn them in to a 'real' word.

Also, how is your dd with comprehension? The phonics test is pure decoding, but does dd understand what she has read and can she discuss the story/answer questions about it? Having taught both KS1 and KS2, I have seen children who have struggled with phonics per se in y2, but then have gone on to be excellent 'real readers' in Y3 and Y4. So don't worry! :)

What is it that makes you think dd does not get enough attention in class? I tend to find that the more able children are the ones who (sadly) get left to work independently more often as other children may need more adult time to complete tasks.Equally though, it is important for all chn (dd included) to have time to work without the teacher. We have found that the problem for our Special Needs children is that we are giving them too much adult time and they are then unable to work independently when they needed to. (Please note- I am not suggesting dd has Special Needs here!! In fact I am very confident she isn't with a score of 25!! :D )

What has the teacher done to give you this impression? I think you're in a difficult position as dd has this teacher next year and you don;t want to come across as 'nagging' (even though I know you aren't!) It's important that you hear what the teacher IS doing for dd as well as finding out for yourself what she ISN'T.

It can be very defeatist as a teacher when you are trying to put lots of support strategies in place but parents don't always want to see them as (understandably) they just want results! And quickly! I'm not suggesting this is you but you want to have a good relationship for next year.

Of course you definitely have the right to know what is going to be put in place next year for dd. If nothing is being done- then START NAGGING!! :D

I agree. They chose to do the test and report the outcome to parents yet they aren't acting on the results ...why?

Nonsense words are a standard and effective way of assessing a child's ability to use phonics to read unknown words. It is used by educational professionals (including EPs) in many English speaking countries. IMHE good readers don't struggle with decoding nonsense words.

I agree many do not but there are always exceptions to the rules. I went through with a Y2 class to Y3 last year and my two TOP readers at the end of Y3 continually struggled with nonsense words in Y2.

They were also the chn who scored highest with comprehension in Y2, so they were certainly not considered low readers at the time either. When chn go to KS2, they are never asked to read such words again, but rather tackle new/unfamiliar words by applying their phonics BUT with a sense of context and using a knowledge of the real world, to try and make sense of new words with real meaning.

On my Lit Co meetings amongst Family of Schools there is a common feeling about the nonsense words causing problems for chn who surprise us.

Regardless, whether or not it was the nonsense words which dd struggled with, it would be worth asking your child's teacher which aspects she found difficult- its lovely to have parents who want to identify difficult areas and help their child like yourself. :)

Mrz there's quite a long thread on the issue on the TES forum with teachers finding the same thing
community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/589342.aspx?PageIndex=1

In contrast my Y2 children who scored highest in comprehension (3a readers) have no problem with reading nonsense words. We do teach phonics in KS2 and children do encounter pseudo words. As literacy coordinator and SENCO we routinely use pseudo words with children across the whole primary age. It just shows the different approaches in different LEAs and different schools

totallytallbird, I expect mrz made several contributions to the TES thread! And to the similar ones here on MN at the time of the Phonics Check!

At the risk of starting the debate all over again what it seems to boil down to is that some teachers believe that as long as a child can 'comprehend' what they read it really doesn't matter if they are not reading accurately. So they focus on comprehension at the expense of secure phonic knowledge. Whereas others believe that you ultimately (not just in EY and lower KS2) cannot fully comprehend what you are reading unless you do read accurately, and to read accurately, for all but a very few exceptional children, phonic knowledge and skills have to be firmly established.

As you can probably see, I subscribe to the latter view because I work with struggling readers at KS3 and see at first hand the effect that poor phonic knowledge has on the reading ability of children of all levels of intelligence.

Yes completely agree.
Also agree that a lot of my able readers (comprehension) were also strong with nonsense words, just not always a correlation.

When I said they are not asked to read these words again at KS2 I meant in official (SATs) testing. Not that I think AT ALL that these are the best assessment of reading ;)

I'd be interested to hear how you incorporate phonics across the whole age range? We do this up to Y6 also but not for all children, just those who we feel still need to build on their phonics throughout KS2. Do all your children through KS2 continue with phonics?

Phonics is part of the daily English lesson for all children, although by KS2 it mainly focuses on phonics for spelling. We screen all children (phonics) as part of our termly assessment programme so although it isn't a statutory national test it is part of the school's assessment.