Concerned about dd's progress in year 2

[Schooloflife]

Hello all, newish to mumsnet so please bear with me.

I am concerned about my dd's progress at her very good prep school, in sept she will be entering year 2, she is a bright child but she failed her phonics screening test with a mark of 25 (pass mark is 32) I am a constant worrier so talk to her teacher if I ever feel concerned about her progress and the problem is I always seem to be told she is on target for her age, very able reader, very keen to please, extremely responsive to rewards system the teacher started. But when she didn't pass the test it's left me slightly concerned about how much time she is getting in class (class of 15). The class has a group of very clever children ie timetables to 12 in year 1 etc..
I know these children get a lot of attention from teacher and it's always children from that group who get picked for talking in assemblies, taking register to reception, and all that sort of stuff that kids get upset about ( I know that makes me sound silly).
So despite of being told dd is doing fine I am not happy with her teacher and truly feel she is not getting enough attention in class she will have same teacher next year so not feeling very confident about dd's progress in year 2 and especially worried about sats tests.

I do a lot of reading and number work at home and dd is an able child.

I have been to 3 different tutors this summer for assessment of dd to see if she is where she should be, they have all come back and said she is at right level so my question is should I Be worried about her teacher because she didn't pass the test and should I write to the head teacher?

If she really is at the expected level, why did she fail the test? The school has good reputation but I worry if dd will get lost in class with these extremely able children.

I worry about education a lot because I wasn't very good at school and didn't have parents who really understood education.

Any advice or comments appreciated.

maizieD- you said that some teachers believe that as long as a child can 'comprehend' what they read it really doesn't matter if they are not reading accurately.

Have you ever seen this (I know you are not in this way of thinking)? I have never found chn who can comprehend accurately what they are reading if they cannot decode the text well? I would be surprised if anyone thought this was possible?

Quite oppositely, it seems much more common that chn can decode to the point of reading aloud fluently but actually have no understanding of what they have read.

As for teachers focusing on comprehension rather than phonics, unfortunately there is huge pressure to do this. At a school within out family, OFSTED focused on the progress of a group of Y4 SEN pupils. During Y3 their teacher had put much more focus on phonics, resulting in fantastic phonic progress over the year. Yet despite this, the children's comprehension still needed considerable work and therefore progress was deemed 'inadequate' for these children. Their progress in phonics was not at all recognised or valued, though of course without it they could not move forward with their comprehension.

I am not suggesting that these chn should not be able to comprehend- far from it. However, as you said, phonics has to underpin this and ultimately come first.

Equally, SATs tests put even more pressure on 'comprehension' teaching, even though this is 'comprehension' to pass a test only and learning 'the type of answers SATs tests expect.'

I think that the focus on phonics now through KS2 and KS3 is great, but official assessment needs to change a long side this (and not by implementing just a KS1 phonic check).

Perhaps the new KS2 English test will change people's focus.

mrz- thanks for the reply.
We also use spelling within literacy lessons.

When you say you screen all children for phonics termly (as part of a wider assessment) do you (for example) still assess individual phonemes with chn in Y6, or would their 'phonics' assessments focus around the spelling rules taught within Literacy?

Have you ever used Talisman phonics series? I am looking at something to focus on our Y6 boys' phonics this year and think this may be well-targeted for them?

Yes, I hope so (regarding new test). It will be useful to have more info on this.

We wouldn't screen Y6 pupils for individual phonemes if they had consistently demonstrated they were secure in recognising these.
I've not used the Talisman books because reading isn't a concern in the school but I've seen them and they look very good. Another option might be the new OUP scheme Code www.oxfordowl.co.uk/Ebooks/Skyway-Shock/#

Thanks! We have Project X in Y4/5 so these may actually be a good transition if they are different series which builds on what we have :)

Have you ever seen this (I know you are not in this way of thinking)? I have never found chn who can comprehend accurately what they are reading if they cannot decode the text well? I would be surprised if anyone thought this was possible?

If you read the TES threads you find quite a few teachers who seem to think that it is possible to comprehend/make meaning without particularly good phonic skills. They're the ones whose 'good' readers failed to reach the standard in the phonics check

I see a fair number of children, on entry in Y7, who can get the gist of what they are reading (usually fairly simple stuff at the level we're working at) but who, when they read aloud, tend to miss out words, put in words that aren't there and 'blurgh' over words they are not sure of. This will clearly affect their understanding of more the more complex texts that they will encounter as they move through KS3 & 4.

I also have children who develop better accuracy and fluency as their phonic knowledge improves but have such poor vocabularies that they just don't understand what the words they are reading 'mean'. Just like the Y4 SEN pupils you refer to. This is a language problem, though, isn't it, which affects not only reading comprehnsion but also thinking skills.

I completely agree with you about the lack of official assessment of phonic skills throughout the Key Stages. It is so frustrating that children can get a reasonable level for Reading in KS2 SATs when really all they've done is get the general idea of the passage and practised lots of similar exercises! I think it is so unfair on the children to lead them to believe that they are competent readers when, in fact, some of them aren't.

But we are living with the consequences of decades of the marginalisation of phonics teaching and the belief that comprehension is paramount. Which, of course, it is, ultimately; but if you junk the tools which underpin comprehension, phonics, for word recognition, and language, for word meanings, many children really struggle. This seems to be taking a long time to sink in for some teachers...

I really appreciate all your replies. I have decided I will write to the head teacher and copy the class teacher in to the letter so she doesn't feel as if I'm attacking her. Is there a particular book or scheme I should try that will bridge the gap in Dd's knowledge of phonics that anyone can recommend?

Sazzler61: your words are very comforting.

During Y3 their teacher had put much more focus on phonics, resulting in fantastic phonic progress over the year. Yet despite this, the children's comprehension still needed considerable work and therefore progress was deemed 'inadequate' for these children.

Teaching phonics well doesn't exclude teaching understanding. Good phonics teaching always takes places within the context of words, sentences and texts. That is its purpose! You can't read for meaning if you can't decode the words and while it is possible to learn a relatively small number of words by sight that doesn't equip a child to read unfamiliar words when they meet them.

I agree with Mrz, however I would be concerned that this is the only assessment that they seem to have shared with you. Once in a blue moon a child can do really badly on a test for absolutely no good reason. I would be asking for other test results & teacher assessments.

I am a teacher and am thinking of a particular (older) pupil in our school - our LA did a blanket reading age test a year ago and her result came out two years behind her chronological age. As all her teacher assessments, school reading age tests and NFER English tests results, throughout her time in school, had indicated she was average / slightly above, we retested her using yet another (different) reading test. She was inline with her chronological age. A year on and she is now ahead of her chronological age according to the LA test and our own. It was just one of those things in my opinion - she must have been 'away with the fairies' on that one particular morning.

mrz- Teaching phonics well doesn't exclude teaching understanding. Good phonics teaching always takes places within the context of words, sentences and texts. That is its purpose!

Yes I completely agree, which is why I asked above how children can gain an understanding or 'gist' of what they have read if they cannot decode it- certainly past a certain a very basic level of comprehension. My point was that the progress which the Y3 children HAD made was completely ignored. Their phonics was HUGELY improved, including their reading of words, sentences and simple texts. However, the fact that they struggled on the Y3 Optional SATs test (mainly on the more deductive and inferential elements) meant that this progress was not recognised/valued.

mrz- You can't read for meaning if you can't decode the words and while it is possible to learn a relatively small number of words by sight that doesn't equip a child to read unfamiliar words when they meet them.

Again agreed :) This is why the Y3 teacher put so much focus in to the phonics/decoding for these chn so that higher order reading skills could be built up in future.

Yes I completely agree, which is why I asked above how children can gain an understanding or 'gist' of what they have read if they cannot decode it- certainly past a certain a very basic level of comprehension.

We all know it's quite possible for children to gain a basic understanding without knowing what all the words mean just as it's possible to gain a basic understanding without actually reading every word in the text.
Often it's possible to score reasonably well on the comprehension test without being able to read all the words and lets face it guessing from pictures. You have a one in four chance with the multiple choice questions after all.

his is why the Y3 teacher put so much focus in to the phonics/decoding for these chn so that higher order reading skills could be built up in future.

The problem is she seems to have ignored understanding in her quest to develop decoding skills

Thing is - those SEN kids have to make progress with understanding what they've read as well as decoding.

Sure they made progress this year - but they obviously didn't make adequate progress else they would have gone up a sublevel or more on optional SATs test.

It's not good enough to be satisfied with less than adequate progress without a very good reason - and for most kids on the SEN register there isn't one.

Totallytallbird I have just noticed your post re the TES thread ... and as maizie has said I made far too many posts on that particular thread saying what I have repeated here.

and as maizie has said I made far too many posts on that particular thread saying what I have repeated here.

I didn't say it quite like that, mrz.

no but that is the truth of the matter

mrz-The problem is she seems to have ignored understanding in her quest to develop decoding skills
Indigobell- Sure they made progress this year - but they obviously didn't make adequate progress else they would have gone up a sublevel or more on optional SATs test.

I think these are very short-sighted comments considering that these chn entered Y3 working at the early stages of Phase 3 and left working at(though not secure on) Phase 6?? In one year this teacher achieved what the infant school had not in YR,1 and 2??

You will see from my previous post that I said they DID make progress in basic comprehension. This is obviously something which they will continue to build on next year now that they have the skills to decode independently. Yes it would have been great if the teacher had also 'whizzed' their comprehension up to expected Y3 levels, but you have to be realistic with where they were when she started working with them.

In actual fact, the areas which let these chn down on the SATs were-
A- working with the larger amounts of text (which chn do not have to deal with on the KS1 paper) and skim/scanning to select information

B- answering the more inferential/deductive questions (which are again much fewer on a ks1 paper)

YES these skills are/were covered in Y3, but these chn started the year working at a Reception phonic phase?!
How many years' catch up can one teacher be expected to do in a year?

It was not a case of neglecting comprehension for the sake of decoding, but rather a case of not being able to achieve everything at once. When they other chn in the class were working on a Phase 3/4/5 level of phonics during KS1, would they also have been dealing with the additional skills required of Y3?? Of course not?! But that is what you are asking of this teacher and these chn in just one year.

When they other chn in the class were working on a Phase 3/4/5 level of phonics during KS1, would they also have been dealing with the additional skills required of Y3?? Of course not?!

I would have thought some of them would have been working on those skills. Whilst you don't teach decoding and comprehending in isolation, the skills aren't really dependent on each other beyond being able to decode enough of a text to understand it. Even using simple texts with only Phase 2-4 graphemes you can begin to ask questions involving some simple inference and deduction e.g. about characters motivations, feelings.

Sazzler - I didn't understand how those kids failed to make progress then. Given adequate progress in Y3 is 1 sub level, although schools do normally expect 2 sublevels.

So, either their Y2 grade was inflated/inaccurate, or they did make adequate progress.

I can't understand why the teacher is being given grief. Surely those kids must be at the expected standard (2a/3c) now? If not, surely they've made at least 2 sublevels progress?

But I still stick by my point - which is I don't care how pleased teachers are with my DC progress - if they havent gone up sublevels the teacher has failed them.

Sazzler you said
"During Y3 their teacher had put much more focus on phonics, resulting in fantastic phonic progress over the year. Yet despite this, the children's comprehension still needed considerable work and therefore progress was deemed 'inadequate' for these children."

so how is it short sighted to say she has failed to teach understanding ??

"these chn entered Y3 working at the early stages of Phase 3 and left working at(though not secure on) Phase 6?? In one year this teacher achieved what the infant school had not in YR,1 and 2??"

I agree questions should be asked regarding these children's lack of progress in KS1 but it still seems that while she has done an excellent job teaching these children phonics she has done so in a vacuum.

As a literacy coordinator I would be very concerned if children were entering Y3 not knowing the 44 sounds in English and at least one way that the sounds can be represented.

In actual fact, the areas which let these chn down on the SATs were-
A- working with the larger amounts of text (which chn do not have to deal with on the KS1 paper) and skim/scanning to select information

Why don't they work with larger amounts of text?

When they other chn in the class were working on a Phase 3/4/5 level of phonics during KS1

I would also be asking why children are still working at phase 3 & 4 in KS1. It seems there is an issue in reception ...

Agree with second poster - phonics test is pure rubbish! On our school assessments, most of our children are where they should be but half the class failed the phonics test mainly because when they came across a word that wasn't a word, they would sound out in their heads literally before doing it aloud and realise it wasn't a word and refused to read it or have a go DESPITE us telling them to do so anyways. They're only 5 and 6!!!

It's strange how those who say the phonics check is rubbish had poor results

OP - I think writing a letter to the HT and cc'ing the teacher is a good idea. The school decided to administer the phonics screening and, as such, should have a plan in place to consolidate the phonics knowledge of those children who didn't pass the test. I agree there will be children who 'failed' the test, but who, on the face of it, are competent readers. Whether this ability will come unstuck further in their education, I don't know. It seems like secondary teachers like maizieD are finding that, in some instances, this is the case...

FWIW, I was dubious about phonics - I was taught to read in the early 80's and it was mainly whole word recognition as far as I can remember. BUT, I have watched my DD (just turned 5, a late Aug born) become a very strong reader (turquoise book band) and I have embraced phonics fully to support her.

I completely agree with mrz and she is far more qualified, as a reception teacher, SENCO and literacy co-ordinator, to explain the benefits of phonics teaching and continual assessment. I would like to ask those teachers, such as Willsmum79, who rubbish the phonics screening to explain to me the reasoning behind this. I hear a lot of complaints about the pseudo words and that some children refuse to say these nonsense words, but these children are 5 and 6 - they cannot possibly have a large enough grasp on the English language to know that these words are not a name (and let's face it there are some unusual names out there) or a random word that they have not yet encountered. Why are they not using their knowledge of phonics to make a sound guess/judgement at what the word should be? Why are they refusing to read it? I don't accept that it is because they think it is rubbish; I suspect, in many cases, it is because they cannot decode it confidently enough...

Ok my dd has struggled with some aspects of reading.

her school split the ones struggling into 3small groups.
mine was with ta as not too bad doing blending sounds.

These senco ta came in and helped the ones at the bottom.

dd at end of year 1 achieved a 1b at reading.
but she passed her phonics with 36/40

The ones who failed in her class were no surprise as they were struggling readers.

I guess im just fed up of too much testing full stop as wish the sats would go too.

im my opinion the best way to teach in year 1 and 2 would be in small groups and much more one on one time.

I say this as the smaller class in dds year last year as better reading levels.

The phonics test only just came out too early to say if its helped,
Guess its just another test and tell schools and teachers if you dont get this pass rate them you in trouble.

or worse schools start publishing results for prospective parents.