Katerina's school nightmare: advice needed, I'm desperate! :(

[Katerina384]

A few days ago I posted about having no school places for my DDs in September. We moved to the area a few months ago ( an oversubscribed area) and originally were offered no school places at all. I also can't find a nursery place for DS, but as I work from home and will soon be on maternity leave I'm not so worried about that for now.

I finally had an email from the LEA today. DD1 has been offered a place in year 3 at a school approx. 4 miles away, and DD2 a place in year 2 at a school 7 miles away in a different direction :( I will be given free transport to school on public buses for both DDs.

The issue here is how I'm going to be able to get both of them to school. I don't drive, so we will have to use public transport. I was speaking to a neighbour of mine whose DC was also offered a place at the school 7 miles away, she and her DC tried the route on public transport and it took them almost 2 hours I can't afford to put one DD into before and after school care to pick up the other as it is, but if it's a 4 hour round trip just to get DD2 to school then it's going to be impossible to get DD1 to school too. I would have to take one DD with me to drop the first one off too IYSWIM, as well as a 4 year old if no nursery place comes up soon and will be heavily pregnant/with a newborn. Surely this is never going to work?

The schools the DDs have been offered places at are both in speical measures and have horrible reputations, but at this moment in time I just want to get them in somewhere, I'll worry about trying to come up with something better later!

I know if I turn down one or more of the places then the LEA have no obligation to find me another one, but I just don't see how we could possibly make this work.

Advice greatly needed!
Katerina

Bonsoir the issue is that recent governments have all been fixated on efficiency. So all schools are pushed to be full all the time, if there are spare places then admission numbers are cut or whole schools closed/amalgamated. Any school closed is then sold off ASAP, to raise funds for the LA and often in the SE to provide residential land.
So when birth rates rise there is little slack in the system, even more so for years R-2 where class sizes are capped at 30.

This is a totally different system to somewhere like the US where you are entitled to a place at your local school, but also most schools/classes are not operating at the maximum possible size. It is yet another reason why the work force here is not flexible.

Fixed catchments are not, of course, fixed in stone. The boundaries (roads) move in and out of catchment according to moves in population. But the principle remains that DCs live within walking distance of school and all DCs in an apartment building/block will attend the same state school (unless their parents choose to opt out and use a Catholic or international school).

Yes, but many schools are still victorian, there is no room to expand. The government say that classes should have no more than 30 (without an extra teacher), so there is no land for extra classrooms, no space to increase existing classes and taking say 32 children instead of 30 would cost about 30000 pounds, for which those two could be privately educated!

Bonsoir - what happens if, for example, a very good school's catchment is neighboured by the catchment of a very poor school (this is often the case in London, perhaps less so in the more centralised school system in France)? In the UK, parents would seek to get into the better scholl, leaving that school over-subscried and unable to admit all children, and leaving the less good school undersubscribed. The UK system, to an extent, is designed to limit the expansion of very good schools (a local primary, for example, has 3x the number of applicants as it has places, and all from children living within 0.5 km of the school) and to give poorer schools some pupils (money comes with pupil numbers, so once a school has falling rolls it very quickly gets into a downward spiral in which there is limted money to make positive changes, rolls fall further, teachers have to leave etc).

Does the French system have the same visibility of "quality markers" such as SATs results, league tables and Ofsted reports as the UK system? It is my impression that it is this visibiluty of the difference between schools which drives at least some of the issues here. As you will have seen, many people on Mumsnet do not even apply for their local school because it is perceived as not being 'good enough' - in the system you propose, I presume that you would expect all of those children to attend their local catchment school whatever its quality? (Simpler, i agree, but now that genie is out of the bottle it will be very hard to get it back in!)

In Paris, you register with your local mairie (council) in the year before your child is due to start school and you are allocated your local school. You can find out which school this is for yourself with a handy internet application where you enter your address and the stage of school (maternelle, primary, college) your DC is at. Lycée (the last three years) follows different rules.

If parents wish their DCs to attend a different school to their local catchment school they can either request a "dérogation" for another state school (which is quite hard to obtain) or use the "private" (highly state subsidised) Catholic school system. In some areas, including my own, the local collège is such a sink school that it has largely been abandoned - only 500 of 800 places are full. DCs attend Catholic schools instead.

And, no, there are not the same visible quality markers as in England but parents seem to know what is going on in their local schools all the same!

Also don't forget the huge pressure on the system of the recession. Traditionally in London many parents would either pay to go to private schools, or would move out of London when the children come along. As people often can't move due to house prices, plus not affording/ willing to commit to private education the state system is under more pressure. Together with increased imigration, it is a perfect storm, and those factors make it hard to predict numbers based on previous demographics. Maybe previously 20 percent of children born in an area would have moved or been privately educated, now only 10 percent are so many calculations made 5 years ago are inaccurate.

Bonsoir,

I think there would be uproar if the [illusion of] choice was removed from the English school system.

As you will know from much reading of these boards, parents agonise for months and years over which school, pore over Ofted reports, do mulitple visits etc etc.

Of course, for the vast majority, there is only one, or at the very most 2, schools an individual child has any chance of attending ... sadly not all parents realise this and may well omit these critical schools from their lists and cause themselves great heart-searching and angst.

Culturally, however, I do not think that trying to return to a centralised system as you describe would ever happen here...

I also come from the time when there was much less parental choice. I was one of a handful of pupils who didn't go to the "catchment" school for my address. If I had, I would not have been able to study the subjects necessary to study my chosen subject at University, but it was luck that My mother applied and I was allowed to go to a "non-catchment school". If I had lived 50 meters away I would have been allowed to apply to grammar school, but I lived just in the wrong borough.
Yes most people went to their catchment school, but actually my non-catchment one was closer to where I lived.

At present my DC don't go to the one which would be my catchment one, but it also wouldn't be the right one for them. Although I know other people who have been very happy with it.

I agree with you that there is, in England, enormous cultural attachment to the illusion of school choice. But gosh does it come at a huge cost (see OP!).

well situations equally crap in bristol think 2nd worst outside london .

all the council seem to do is extend already full schools and move the problem around.

one year 300kids bristol dident get any of their 3choices so had no school place.

building schools take time.

i really blame planning as when they build a biog brand new estate of family houses the developer should also help fund the local school .

we outer suburb and different la so not as bad.
but even here schools are getting full as then accepting out of catchment kids. we 2miles from border la.
Our local comp has very few local kids , most in area dont consider it good enough so we bus/drive kids elsewhere and kids from nearby bus in.

I think schools contribute to why traffic and the ring roads so bad too has a knock on effect.

I dident even veiw my nearest school as from what i heard, people next door to it in different schools, and walking past just sheer size let alone ofsted and sats decided against.

Im amazed how far some parents will voluntarily travel to school they want.

my freind buses it 5days a week as she doesnt drive to go out of catchment to better school. but she only has 1child gets far more complex with siblings.

I hear of siblings being offered different schools a lot.

I see the tears and hear the horror stories.

There are some places usually at schools no parent would activly choose so home ed very popular here as is private.

I went to catchment primary.
now if i was kid living in same street.
I would probably not get in as thats schools oversubscribed the catchments shrinking

I noticed at juniors there does seem some movement people moving away people moving in, less restrictions on class sizes so imagine be easier to find place for 1 child at year 3-6 but nightmare to find infant place reception-year 2 max 30.

Bonsoir,

I do think that the visibility of quality markers in England can have a huge - and very rapid - impact, much quicker than the 'general parental impresssion on the street' that you descibe in France.

For example, a local secondary had its 'Outstanding' Ofsted replaced with a 'Satisfactory' one earlier in the year. In the last few years, that school has been full - and vastly oversubscribed - every year.

I fully expect that in the next round of applications, the previously full school will not fill its full quota of places - maybe even have a shortfall of 25 - 30% in its numbers.

It is that kind of swing, based on the visibility of a [flawed, obviously] inspection system, that would not happen in France. A gradual increase oir decline in perceived quality - yes, of course. An immediate drop of several hundred applications - probably not.

I fail to see why choice of school two years ago has affected the OP not having any closer schools than 7 miles away. Presumably even under the Paris system decent schools would have filled with other children by then. It is the lack of slack in the system at this stage not the original allocations.

Schools in France behave in a different way, so comparisons are hard. For example, schools may refuse "dérogations" in order to "imprison" pupils, even when there is space in a school a family prefers and, worst of all, schools may refuse to release pupils who wish to leave for a school they would prefer.

Bonsoir,

What happens if a new family moves into an area in Paris? Is there any concept of a school being 'full'. Or are the children admitted to the local school even if it means very large classes / new classes being formed [where? do schools tend to have spare space and capacity for this eventuality?]?

TBH, where my family lives I have never heard of a state school being full, only of private schools being full (they all are! with long waiting lists!). But I know that there have been issues with some areas of Paris being depopulated of families because property has been bought up massively by international investors (eg 5th arrondissement) whose children are not at school here. Schools in some areas have closed, and in others (eg 9th arrondissement) new schools have opened.

Quality of accommodation in Paris schools is notoriously dreadful - squeezing classrooms into residential apartments in the building next door is perfectly acceptable.

I've only skimmed through, so you might have already ruled out home education? It's not as hideous as you might think
www.education-otherwise.net/

So, essentially, the French state is prepared to keep spare capacity in the state school system in case it is needed, and to fund schools on the basis that they do not need 30 [or however many the maximum is] children in each class to balance the books.

The English system is not like this, as a previous poster has said. Popular schools are expected to fill to absolute capacity of their buildings [but in general not expand] while schools which cannot completely fill their classes because they are relatively unpopular or in areas of sparser population suffer the consequences because funding is per pupil and each pupil below the maximum carries a 'hit' in terms of overall funding for the school. This may limit capacity to e.g. buy textbbooks and exercise books [in France I believe that parents are expected to buy much of this?], employ experienced teachers, buy or update equipment etc.

No, classes are reasonably full. Funding is on a per pupil basis, so if there aren't enough pupils to make up a class, two classes (or more) get the same classroom and teacher. Only buildings go unused, and they are maintained to quite low standards (would not meet OFSTED minima, that's for sure).

Yes, most school supplies (text books and stationery) are supplied/paid for/physically bought by parents, though poorer families get a "back to school" cash grant to help, and some councils purchase text books and lend them.

Bonsoir - are there any limits on class sizes in French schools? Would you get 4/5/6/7yo's in classes larger than 30?

If not, how do the schools manage to find extra classrooms to make sure that the DC aren't in huge classes?

Would you be happy for your 4-7yo being taught in a 56m2 (or possibly only 48m2 in an older school building) classroom with 35/40+ others? With just one teacher, and possibly a TA? Maybe two teachers, but that would cause issues in itself in small classrooms.

When I had lessons in a French Lycée, in Paris suburbs, on a French exchange, there were maybe 25 DC in the class, but the classroom was big enough to hold up to 50 easily. That is not the case in the UK, with space being at a premium, especially in cities and in the SE.

So what you are saying, Bonsoir, is that if 5 children turn up asking for admission mid year (that is our record for a single day - as we are a small school of around 90 pupils you can imagine that was a slightly exciting day, though we do have a large number of 'comings and goings' during the year so it was just the number all at once that made us blink!) and that made a class too large, a new teacher would start, an unused classroom be opened, and the school carry on as before?

Or are the classes not quite full, so a few extra pupils can always be absorbed?

CouthyMow - the class size limit for 3-6 year olds (maternelle) is 30, with a single teacher for six hours a day (TAs are supplied locally by the council - or not - from separate budgets) and you would be extraordinarily lucky to get a classroom that the DCs could do much in that sit at desks. Class sizes for 6-11 year olds are 25 max (again, a single class teacher and no TAs) and desks will be in rows, glued together. There is no space in schools in Paris (no assembly rooms, no gyms).

Mid-year admissions are quite rare in France. TBH I don't know why that is, but it is generally accepted that people move (eg job, house etc) over the summer break. Certainly if you want to rent a family home, the market is awash with properties in May/June/July and almost dead the rest of the time.

OK, so I've been on the phone to the LEA this morning.

Apparently they 'didn't have the information to hand' to tell me if the fair access protocol had been used Am I right in saying they could have used this to put DD2 in a year 2 class locally even if there were already 30 children in it? They're phoning me back later when they've found out if it was used.

DD1 is the 30th child in her year 3 class, so they didn't extend it, she got lucky :( No places in either her school or DD2's for the other DD. I have asked the LEA to remove DD1 from the waiting list at DD2's school the 2 hour bus journey away- it's just not going to work. Tempted to remove DD2 from the list at DD1's school almost an hour away too but still thinking about that.

They were hugely unhelpful when I asked who would be responsible for DD1 if she travelled alone, said they could offer me free bus transport and it was my responsibility to organise how this worked But they understand it's not an ideal situation and they will let me know as soon as a place at a local school comes up.

On a brighter note they said if I can provide proof of church attendence both DDs would be much higher up the waiting list for the RC school that is our first choice and other religious schools in the area- previous church are sending this over :)