1st on a waiting list, 3 families not been in contact with school after being offered places

[Katydive]

Hi, please be gentle with me this is my first post in about 4 years!

Extremely annoying situation in which I'm sure others are experiencing. Due to a freakishly high number of siblings this year we were unable to gain a place for DS at our local C of E primary ( a school that is traditionally undersubscribed) we are 1 st on the waiting list, but with an intake of 15 we can't see anyone pulling out anytime soon.
We were offered another local school but it is not a good school and it's Ofsted report is also pretty rubbish, we never intended him to go here.
Recently a friend of mine was offered a place at a very good school just down the road as she sensibly put her name on the waiting list for this, it didn't occur to me to do this at the time.
I put my name on yesterday (I am 2nd) and spoke to the school, they know of three families who have not replied to letters in weeks/months and their children have not attended the taster days. They strongly suspect that the families are not turning up, and that we could relay that info to the LEA.
However after speaking to them today to find out what the 'cut off' date for these families is to accept the place we find out that there isn't one! He actually said that the place may be kept open for two terms, 6 months!!! for the pupil, how is this fair?? It's obvious that the parents have made a different decision but haven't been bothered to let the school know.
It is a waiting game for us now and we are also considering the independent option until we find out, which means we lose at least 1 terms money.
Because the local LEA have done something wrong to us recently, they seem to be doing all they can to put it right and have said that they will look into these three families to see if they can get an answer, so thats something I suppose.
Is anyone else going through anything similar?

Have you appealed for a place at your first choice primary? If previous years have been undersubscribed, it seems strange they can't take any extras this year. Small schools usually are keen to do this to preserve their funding.

I believe the Admissions Authority can write to the parents and set a deadline by which they need to confirm they are accepting the place - the Admissions Code sets out the timeframe I recall. If there is no acceptance the Admissions Authority writes acknowledgeing place not accepted and then reverts to the waiting list to allocate the now free place.

boneyjonesy - Yes we did, on the grounds that we live in the same village as the school, albeit in a slightly seperated area (actually nearer the next village with horrible school) previous to 2002 the area shared a catchment area with both schools. However in 2003 the shared area was removed and we were put with the next villages school. There were 7 siblings this year and no-one out of catchment got in (inc us) this hasn't happened for 10 years. We appealed on the basis that the shared area should never have been removed as the school was then and still is normally undersubscribed. The appeal sympathised but ssaid it was beyond their remit, they advised we sent formal complaint to LEA, we did and it ended up with the the head of department we were complaining about, guess what, she 'mislaid' the letter and didn'nt forward it to Customer Complaints and we heard nothing in 4 weeks, her boss is now dealing with it, but this is a seperate issue and doesn't affect this alternate school we are now going for ( itis actually a better school)

JWIM - Thanks for that I will look this up, it never occurred to me to look this up, why on earth don't they do this automatically when the parents do not reply or attend meetings, to save all the heartache?!

tiggytape - From what I gather it is the school who told us that the families had not responded to their letters regarding the welcome mornings and who have not turned up to the meetings. Although I have informed my allocated school that we do not require the place from memory we were not actually obliged to 'accept it' as we had already been given a place, although I may be wrong it was a couple of months ago!
When we spoke to the LEA they seemed to have no knowledge of the three non showers and said it was the schools responsibility to contact them about the families.
In fact before we got to the 'boss' the person in the admissions department had no idea about timescales if the children did not show up!!
Honestly this LEA we feel are totally incompetent having a 'quiet time' every single day from 12.30pm until 5.00 when they will not take calls, ggrrr.

BTW - is this admissions code a 'one for all' across England or is it different for every LEA, I am struggling to find mine online

Im bit baffled maybe its different in different parts of uk.

we live in outer city suberb with a few schools have choice of like 8-10 but was told as theres a lots theres no catchment area or otherwise known as area of prime responsability for us.

my mum lives small rural town and they have strict catchment area for primaries even in small town.

its been 2years since went through primary admissions procedure.

but im sure we had a set deadline/date to respond and accept or decline the place.

we did all ours online. as completed application online.

also not sure if applicable but voluntary aided schools ie faith schools can usally decide their own admissions policy and the lea acts as go between between parents.

my eldest goes to rc primary where had to hand in supplemntry evidence form giving faith, baptsim certificate and copy of utility bill for address.

The admissions criteria for faith schools has pecking order.
it should say in your admissions for schools book pack or school prospectus.

think went something along lines of

1)kids in care
2)baptised catholics
3)siblings
4)kids of baptised catholic parent
5)baptised christians kids
6)other or non faith family but seeking and supporting a faith based education, they used to maybe have small quota for non faith.

some coes want evidence regular attendance in church and letter from minister.

at end of summer term they had settling in sessions and we had to respond to that by letter too comfirming attendance and had home visit by teacher.

I know legally you can defer until age 5 however our la clearly says a place can not be held open for 6months we risked losing our top school as was oversubsribed.

good luck hope you get somewhere with it.

Mam29 - Yes your arrangement does sound a a bit different from the norm, however none of the schools we have applied/applying for are not Volountary Aided (even the faith schools) so this does not apply to us.

I get the impression that the three families have accepted the places at the school, but just haven't been heard of since, this is why the school are suspicious that the families are not going to turn up. Our issue is how long will it take before the places are given to someone else as they are not responding to the letters from the school.

tiggytape - Very helpful, thanks. Yes although I didn't ask the school directly I get the impression that these are families who have accepted the places but obviously have not responded to the schools letters, and it is the school that from experience believes that they will not turn up.

Yes, in this case of course I can see why the LEA can not harass them, it does seem to be doing us a favour though by trying to contact them themselves so thats something. The reason I don't remember accepting the place at the given school is that it is undersubscribed and did not have a waiting list, they proably didn't chase because of this reason, I did turn up to the meetings t the tie etc.

Just to add, there is nothing to stop parents accepting a place but deferring entry until later in the year ie after Christmas or Easter (have to start legally by start of term after they turn 5) The school have to hold the place for them. if they have done this they probably wouldn't go to the induction days (why would you go now if starting in Jan/Apr?)

They may be genuine deferrals as they don't believe summer born child is ready for school yet or they may defer hoping that they get a place at their first choice school before then/know they are probably moving but hang on to place just in case etc., but either way the school can't offer their place to anyone else.

Dont talk to me about incompetent LEAs, ours is absolutely horrendous!

Looking at this, there are three possible situations here:

• The parents may have failed to respond to the offer. Even if there was a deadline for responding to the original offer, the LA cannot take the place away immediately. They must, as a minimum, write again giving the parents at least another 7 days to accept the offer. If the parents fail to respond they can then take the place away. If they do not write again with a fresh deadline they cannot remove the offer. However, it would be unacceptable for them to wait 6 months before offering the place to someone else.

• The parents may have accepted the offer but failed to respond to any further communications. That may mean they don't want the place but it could just mean they are hoping for a place somewhere else or just aren't interested in taster days, etc. As the parents have accepted the offer there is nothing anyone can do about this until September. If the children don't turn up at the start of term the school or LA should contact them to find out whether or not they actually want the place. The place can only be awarded to someone else if they confirm they don't want the place or it turns out they have moved away. Again, they should not be waiting 6 months before deciding to offer the place to someone else.

• The parents may have accepted the offer but intend to defer entry, either because they think their child is too young to start school or because they are hoping to get a place somewhere else. They should have told the school of their intention to defer. If they have not done so and fail to turn up in September the school or LA we are back in the same situation as any other child failing to show - the school or LA need to contact them. If the parents confirm they want to defer the place must be held open for them unless they are deferring for a full year. Of course, if the child fails to turn up at the end of the deferral we are back in the same situation as a child failing to show in September.

You really need to get clarity as to what is going on here. If the parents concerned have not accepted the offers the LA needs to get on and write to them. If they won't do so you should refer the matter to the Local Government Ombudsman. However, if they have accepted the offers I'm afraid you will have to wait a while longer.

mam29 - If your LA is in England they are wrong to say that you can only defer for 6 months if they are still saying that. Two years ago they could say that but the rules have changed. They must hold the place open for you provided you are deferring entry for less than a full academic year. So if you want to defer to, say, Summer half term they must hold the place for you.

Well thanks all for your replies, yes I will find out what the situation is more clearly and hope that they turn down any unwanted places. If they are deferring the school certainly do not know about it and if it were me deferring I would have made sure that the school knew ASAP for fear of losing a much wanted place. Fingers crossed!

I know that there are Local Authorities who make the very stupid assumption that all parents who were allocated a place at a school will start in SEptember, unless they specifically decline the offer. This is nonsense and you are just one example of what happens.
You cannot do anything until the first school day in September. Then I would contact the school and confirm who has or has not turned up. If there are spaces then I would ask the LA for one of those spaces in writing, based on you being second on the waiting list. The LA will then have to do something. If they decline your request then you go to appeal on the basis that you know there are places available and you are being denied the places. I don't think the LA will be that stupid, so I think they will go through the process described by tiggytape.
It might take a short while but it should mean that all the places are allocated at the school. It is important that you do apply in writing for the place on the first date in september because it sets a line in the sand as to the date that the places were empty and therefore should be allocated based on the admission waiting list on that date.

We should be finding out tomorrow what the situation is from the independent school we signed a contract with what the situation is. If they a favourable and let us off with the admin charge, I am sorely tempted to decline this (we have decided that we do not want to go down this route as it would just put too much strain on us) even though it leaves us without a definate place, other than school which is not an option.
This leaves 5 weeks for a possible place to turn up, otherwise he stays on with nursery :(
If we cannot get out of the contract and end up paying for the first term, then we of course would send him there, but we didn't want him to forge friendships and settle in only to drag him out, so difficult!

tiggytape- have just learnt tonight that our LEA ' does not require a parent to accept a place' Err hello not according to the Admissions Code you directed me to. I shall be reading this in more detail tomorrow but this seems farcical. It may or not be the case now that one or all of these families never actually accepted the place back in April, the families are probably assuming that because they didn't accept the place that it would eventually be allocated elsewhere. Just from their 'investigations ' so far ( because we are insisting) one of the three had already declined

Are you in Lancashire as we did not have to accept our places either if we got our first choice - the letter actually says they presume if you put it first choice then you must want it-not sure if it's a different letter/situation for those offered 2nd or 3rd choice? It does seem very frustrating for you though! We haven't ever had to accept first choice schools in lancs- probably an admin saving exercise.

sunnyday123 - I am in West Sussex and we have just had it confirmed from our LEA that they do not have to remove the place if they do not hear from the families despoite the Admissions Code suggesting that "the place may be withdrawn after a reasonable amount of time".

As you say ours decided it didn't want to bother writing those letters and so has left it until 4 weeks before the start of term when the school mentions it to parents and then eventually the LEA get round to 'looking into it'. I have also discovered this morning that there are actually two families unlikely to show and one of them has never even accepted the place! How can they assume that the parents want the space?? I realise people may be away or lost the slip, and I certainly don't believe they should be harrassed, but surely alarms bells rang for the parents when all the letters about taster mornings, school uniforms went out to them, couldn't they be bothered to let anyone know what they are doing, utterly selfish.

It might be worthwhile asking the Schools Adjudicator to consider whether this approach is adequate. As it stands parents near the head of the waiting list are potentially being disadvantaged as there is the possibility that a place they would have got if the LA dealt promptly with parents who had not responded will end up going to a late applicant. If the Adjudicator agrees this is unacceptable that would be useful ammunition if you lose out and have to appeal.

I know of at least two other LAs who have the same stupid belief that once a place is offered the parents will automatically take up that place - clearly they do not understand the concept of independent schools or the potential for home education or people moving.

West Sussex say they form the waiting list three weeks after letters have been sent out, but if they assume 100% acceptance unless the parents formally reject the offer, the chances of much movement on the waiting list is low. In effect there will be a mad period in August and in September where schools and the LA realise that places are vacant and places are offered to fill the gaps.
The problem is that the gaps have in reality been there for a longer period of time, it is just that the LA's current process does not bring them to light.

I agree with PRH that an approach to the School Adjudicator may be useful. The regs that are appropriate for this september entry are the 2009 /10 code. Paragraph 3.20 says "as soon as school places become vacant, they must be filled from the waiting list". My guess is that the LA can say they did not know about any vacancies because nobody told them. But the real question is whether the LA should have been making the effort to establish whether parents were accepting the places offered by the LA. Paragraph 1.50 says "If a parent has not responded to the offer of a place within a reasonable time, the admission authority must remind the parent of the need to respond within a further 7 days and point out that the place may be withdrawn if they do not." By implication that is saying the parent is expected to respond to the offer, that is accept or decline within a set period of time and that the LA should be enforcing this.

The 2012 admission code which comes into force for the September 2013 intake is generally much less prescriptive than the 2009/ 10 code but the wording around withdrawal of a place is equally interesting. It says "An admission authority must not withdraw an offer unless it has been offered in error, parent has not responded within a reasonable period of time....." It then goes onto say "where the parent has not responded to the offer, the admission authority must give the parent a further opportunity to respond...." The same principles as are current now would appear to therefore apply in the future.

I for one would be very interested in what the school adjudicator would have to say about this situation.

Admission - I see, I did indeed look at a copy of the new one and shall now look at the current, which does indeed seem to go into a bit more detail.

As I said one of the three families they are looking into, has been prompted to decline and this place was offered and taken (by my friend) one has accepted but the LEA 'know about her and know she probably isn't going to go ahead' (!?) and the other never even accepted.

What disgusts me is that as you say, this could have been sorted out weeks ago, and places allocated in time. It is not for me to liase with the school only to be told by them about the 'unsure' places. In fact we are lead to believe that school's 'hands are tied', if I had a pound for every time I heard that! In this case they were pro-active in telling me as they thought it was unfair.

Our LEA has 'quiet time' every single day from 12.30pm when they do not take calls, when you ring before this you are told 'they are extremely busy'. No bloody wonder when they only take calls for three hours. You'd think that all this admin time they have they could have pulled their fingers out sooner.

Rant over, sorry! Who and where is the School Adjudicator?

Admission - I am unsure which code does actually apply now, as on the department for education website it only has the 2012 one as 'current' and says that it came into force on 1st Febuary 2012. It says that appeals lodged before this date will have to come under the 2009 code (which I am finding very hard to find), and appeals on or after this date will follow this code.

It seems that this new code called '1st Febuary 2012' may indeed be the one that my LEA are using thus fudging around the issue about contacting parents. However although I agree that the same principle applies, I bet any money that they will have used the loophole in the second one to avoid the chasing up, it seems a lot less strict.

The Schools Adjudicator is here. Their responsibilities include ruling on objections to admission arrangements, which is what you would be doing. They won't look at whether or not your child should be admitted but they will rule on whether or not it is ok for the LA to do nothing about parents who fail to respond to offers.

There are two codes - the Admissions Code and the Admission Appeals Code. You seem to have read the Admission Appeals Code. The code on the DfE site is the current one which is used for all appeals, but it is only about how appeals are run. It does not govern how admissions should be handled. That is governed by the Admissions Code and this year's admissions are still governed by the old code. That isn't on the DfE website but you can find it on the web. Google '2010 Admissions Code'.

Prh47bridge - thanks very much, reading this now and will be ringing the adjudicator this mornig