Help with phonics

[AuntieBulgaria]

Hullo, DD is starting reception in September. She has recently started trying to read things by herself by sounding out the letters. I want to support her but am worried about giving her 'bad' info. Or not actually knowing how to explain.

She was trying to read the word 'alien' in the back of the car the other day but she is used to A making the sound 'ah' (well not ah but you know what I mean, not ay).

Forgive me for being totally dim but why is it 'ay' in alien and age? Is it what I would have called - 'the magic 'e'? Is that what's called a split diagraph?

I read the guide to phonics that DD's school issues and it says that at school they are not given books to read with phonemes they haven't learnt yet but DD is just trying to give it a go with everything she comes across.

What should I say when the word she is reading does something unfamiliar?

Some times she can work it out - she read and blended 'like' as luh i ck eh but then said 'like' because she could make it make sense in the context I suppose.

You shouldn't feel bad about wanting to help your daughter to learn to read. My daughter had already learned to read at home with me teaching her before I'd even heard of phonics. It's simply an exercise in making learning to read, which is actually very easy, into a semi-difficult pseudo-science. (And giving some primary school teachers in web forums an excuse to be rude and feel self important!)

Hello, I'm happy with phonics as the teaching approach. I'd like to be consistent with what she's going to be doing in school.

Out of interest, though, how would you explain the difference between the sounds in alien and ant?

Hi - ex TA (male) here, now retired:

Phonics is confusing for those not properly trained in it, and I have come across plenty of teachers who still get it wrong! (But I would totally refute what learnandsay has posted.)

The SOUND for most letters should be "pure". Thus the sound for letter 'l' is not 'luh (which it was in the 'old days', I agree) but 'llllll'. Similarly, 'm' and 'n' are not 'muh' and 'nuh' but 'mmmm' and 'nnnn'.

In the word 'like' it is the 'e' at the end (as you say, used to be 'magic e') that changes 'i' from its normal sound, to its letter name (pronounced) 'eye'.

So children need to know TWO sounds for many letters, the 'normal' sound, and the 'name' when the word ends in an 'e'.

[ I was well into my 30s before my mother could could convince me that 'fruite salade' did not need 'e' at the end !! ]

Teachers may shoot me down on some of this, but I'll look back later and see how the 'thread' is going.

Ooh look, another phonics thread where learnandsay jumps in and says something ignorant and ill informed.

Ferguson - you were doing okay until you talked about split diagraphs as the old magic e words .

Also, some graphemes have more than two sounds, but most Year 1 children can easily cope with learning the alternatives (even if learnandsay does find it difficult). Anyone seeing a good phonics lesson for the first time is usually surprised by how comfortable small children are at trying alternatives until they find the right one.

e.g. 'ch' can be the 'ch' in chime, Christmas and chalet.

The letter can represent the sound "a" as in nap or the sound "ai" as in apron (or alien) or the sound "o" as in was

In the word "age" two letters represent the sound "ai"

I would tell your daughter that in "alien" the letter spells "ai" and in "ant" it spells "a" ... unlike some adults children are more than happy to accept and use our sometimes confusing way of writing the sounds in words.

www.sounds-write.co.uk/docs/sounds_write_common_spellings_of_the_consonants_and_vowels.pdf

Can I just jump in with an unrelated phonics question? When child want to know the sound at the beginning of their name (it's an "Ah" for Alice or "Huh" for Harry etc) what would you tell a child whose name begins with a "Th"? Would you say it's a "Tuh" or a "Thuh", because obviously the sound they hear is a "Thuh" not a "Tuh Huh".

What is wrong with magic e? Both mine have progressed well using magic e

I would tell them the sound at the beginning of their name is "th" and is spelt

Virgil the e isn't magic it is just split from the other letter

for a while we were told to say split vowel digraph but now the directive is not to use technical language

Mrz can I ask my DD has been taught 'ear' as a phoneme as in hear, tear, ear. That isn't on the vowel list you,linked to. Can I ask why?
Also what in the heck is schwas?

But magic e doesn't hurt does it? My youngest likes the process of using magic e. He might initially read the word without it eg like as lik. But then gets very excited when he spots the magic e which turns the I into "eye". It's made the process quite enjoyable for him.

Magic e is also serving us well when found next to c to make s eg ceiling and when found next to g to make j eg age.

I accept it might not be the into date way of doing things but just curious to know whether it causes a problem as such before I teach dniece the same way.

Up to date!

a schwa is a weak vowel sound such as in the word "the" the letter is a schwa.

Mrz - I think Virgil knows the -e isn't really magic....

I'm sure that Virgil does know but some 4 year olds aren't quite so worldly wise

What do you say for cycle and circus Virgil ?

Magic works in mysterious ways... it doesn't always use the same spell.

Thanks for the help. So 'a' can make the sounds 'a', 'ai' and 'o'.

In the case of age and grape, it's because of the 'e' but in the case of alien, it's just because it does.

Are there split vowel diagraphs that have a letter other than 'e' as the second letter?

It's early days for both of us!
( my tone is an earnest desire to understand)

I did DD a disservice, she did say lll and not luh.

Exactly rabbit plus biff and chip haven't yet been to the circus (surprisingly) so I've not yet had to deal with that one. However ds2, through using the magic e rule is now used to the fact that c can make a c sound or a s sound and so will try c and if that doesn't work will try s.

I am not criticising phonics at all but the reality is that very many children can read before they start school and they are taught by their parents who will probably teach the way they were taught. A little bit of magic e hasn't harmed mine and I can still sing the magic e song from look and read so I might as well put into use!

They did have a problem with Floppy in the cement very early in the book bands
but it was a serious question Virgil ... how would you explain circus or circle

split vowels are ae, ee, ie, oe, u_e

In the same way as you would mrz. Instead of telling a four year old that o-e is a split vowel I would say the e is magic and turns the o into 'oh' just like the name of the letter and turns the c into s. Then when that rule falls down like in circus I taught the DSs that c sometimes makes a c sound and sometimes makes a s sound. Isn't it exactly the same just calling it something a bit more interesting?

Circle isn't a problem. DS2 would initially sound that out as kircle and would then spot the magic e and would try a s sound instead. The word would then make sense and so he would stick with it rather than trying sirsle.

I'm really not trying to say that the phonics method is wrong, I like it, but I was curious to see whether magic e caused any problems and I can't see that it causes any problems that are addressed by calling it something different. The concept is still the same, if there is a vowel followed by an e then the vowel makes the sound of its name.

Can I ask mrz when you teach the split vowels at your school. YR or Y1?