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Don't you feel the burning excitement of competition of the phonics check?

102 replies

flexybex · 22/06/2012 22:57

We're now introducing a Y1 equivalent of KS1 SATS/ KS2 SATs / 11+/ GCSEs / A levels for mummies to tutor for / compete / crow about.

God help us over the next few years.

OP posts:
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mrz · 23/06/2012 22:20

and where have I revealed the words?

HumphreyCobbler · 23/06/2012 22:29

I agree about Michael Rosen. I have to just switch off whenever I hear him talking about it. It makes me livid.

thornbury · 23/06/2012 22:30

You revealed two of them in your post at 18:06 today.

teta · 23/06/2012 23:50

I have to say i totally disagree that most spellings are phonetic.They're not,in the English language.I learnt to read by sight recognition and was a brilliant speller.I never got the hand of phonics at school because i could already read.I do think Learnandsay has a point in that a lot of parents are not interested in phonics but are interested in their children reading ability..I have to admit that i didn't know my 6 year old was taking a compulsory test this week and came on mumsnet when i got the results,to find out more about it.My only excuse is that he is no. 4 and by that stage you don't get wound up by things that might happen in the future.Please excuse the spelling tonight as i have had a few glasses of wine and may not be totally coherent.

mrz · 24/06/2012 06:11

That's what a stinking cold and an overdoes of lemsip does to you thornbury ... All MN will be dashing off to prep their children Wink

mrz · 24/06/2012 06:30

Teta just because you hadn't been taught something directly doesn't mean you aren't capable of working out the phonetic code for yourself. Its whatmany early readers do, infact.but whether you agree or not in English the sounds in spoken words have been assigned spellings and that is the phonetic code. Some languages have a very regular cose one letter one sound. Englsh is very complex with sounds being represented by a number of spellings and the same spelling a number of sounds. For that we look at the etymology of the word (word roots).

Lougle · 24/06/2012 08:10

I am baffled. I can't remember what method of teaching I had as a child (started school 1984, could already read well when I started, taught by Mum/having an older brother). What I can say is that I have been so pleased with DD1's school this year.

DD1 is still 4, an August baby. Her school teaches phonics, and it has been awesome to see her confidence and ability grow. They set early on, and around half her class already do spellings.

Learnandsay, I just don't understand why you would be against something so intuitive? I don't know all the terms for the phonic components, but I do know that we use them every day. I am an almost impeccable speller, but what do I do if I'm tired, or have a mental block? Sound it out, breaking out into it's component sounds. That's phonics.

learnandsay · 24/06/2012 08:37

I'm not against "it", Lougle. I'm against ideological claims that everything linguistic is phonics. Linguistics may involve memory, response, pattern matching, practice, learning by rote and many things besides. The claim that everything linguistic is phonic is plain bunkum. But it's a popular claim in these parts.

Lougle · 24/06/2012 08:42

But that is all part of phonics. They are building blocks. Children come to learn which of the building blocks commonly go together to form established words. Over time, those common words become cemented, so they no longer need to 'build' them, but can simply recall them from memory. The crucial difference is that with phonics they have the tools for independent learning.

learnandsay · 24/06/2012 08:47

No it isn't! The example I gave earlier is that weather, wether, wheather, there, their, two, to and too sound similar. In order to distinguish between similar sounding words and apply them in the correct context you need practice and memory not phonics. Phonics will only tell you what they sound like, not when to apply them.

Mrschristiangray · 24/06/2012 09:03

I thought the phonics check was compulsory in schools and all had to be done this past week?

I really 'fought' against wanting to give my DD some 'prepping' as I figured that if she gets some wrong then that's ok as this means she needs extra help in this area!

She says the ones she got wrong were because of a lack of front/bottom teeth (tooth fairy has been busy recently!)

Interestingly was the way the teacher called some children out for a 'test' but others were called out for a 'game' - DD couldn't figure that one out!

mrz · 24/06/2012 09:04

Whether the word is whether, weather or wether (not sure how many young children need to know how to spell the word for a castrated ram Hmm )they all follow the phonic code learnandsay and while it's true you need to know which version is required in the case of homophones that is all part of phonics teaching.

Mrschristiangray · 24/06/2012 09:10

DD came home this week saying she'd been learning about "gramophones or vodaphones or something like that"

It turned out to be homophones!

learnandsay · 24/06/2012 09:13

Ideologically I'm sure that anything follows the phonetic code if you attempt to define the phonetic code as covering everything! But practically speaking I can't see how you can prescribe what people will remember. Some people just forget which version of there or their applies, or weather and whether, (castrated male lambs aside.) Explaining things to people is not the same as them remembering it. In that sense practice is preferable to theory.

IndigoBell · 24/06/2012 09:31

LearnAndSay - it did take me an awful long time to get my head round mrzs defn of phonics she doesn't always have the patience to describe it well

But think about it like this. Whether and weather are both pronounced the same way. And phonics says that wh can be pronounced /w/ as in what and where. It says that e can be pronounced /e/ as in get and ea can be pronounced /e/ as in tear.

But wother or wither or wather or .... Could not be pronounced as weather. Never ever. Because those words wouldn't follow the english phonic code if they did.

mrz · 24/06/2012 09:42

Some people just forget which version of there or their applies, or weather and whether, (castrated male lambs aside.)
true ... and if you have discovered a method that ensures no one ever forgets which version to use then you are onto a winner.
(and you've obviously never castrated a ram or you wouldn't casually cast them aside)

learnandsay · 24/06/2012 09:43

Sure, Indigo. I've got no problem with that. But if someone stands in the middle of a classroom and says, now children write me a word that rhymes with feather and describes a male lamb with no testicles I'm pretty sure none of the children will come up with anything because there's a lot going on there which has nothing to do with how the lamb sounds, --- like the children don't know what a wether is, (or what testicles are.)

That has nothing to do with phonics. It's got to do with what people know about the world, or the content and context of the question.

IndigoBell · 24/06/2012 09:45

And your point is?

Nobody has ever claimed your vocabulary magically improves by phonics teaching.....

learnandsay · 24/06/2012 09:46

It's the lambs that get castrated (not the rams.) We put a rubber ring on their testes and their tails. (I have done it, by the way.)

mrz · 24/06/2012 09:47

Yes so have I but not with a rubber band

learnandsay · 24/06/2012 09:52

Vocabulary is one thing you have to learn besides phonics, quite true, Indigo. But even if you are aware of the existence of different words that doesn't mean that you won't forget whether to use whether or weather, (or even wether, now that you know what one is.) So you also need practice.

So, my point, Indigo, is that only knowing how a word sounds leaves you ill equipped to deal with language as a whole, because there's much more to language than sound, there's even much more to spelling than sound, as I've explained.

Rosebud05 · 24/06/2012 10:03

I don't think anyone's disputing that, learnsay, are they?

Of course there's more to language than sound. Deaf people learn to speak and spell without being able to hear t all.

But the starting point is the different combinations of letters that make up sounds, isn't it, then what those sounds mean in particular combinations and contexts?

mrz · 24/06/2012 10:05

You are assuming phonics teaching takes place in a vacuum learnandsay.

EdithWeston · 24/06/2012 10:13

Learnandsay has jumbled the terminology of linguistics (which is the study of all branches and aspects of language).

To avoid confusion (I hope): phonetics and phonics are not the same thing.

Both are concerned with the sound of the language. Phonetics is concerned with the actual sounds you make (so is different depending on your accent and how you assimilate speech between words). Phonics is the name of a set of ways of relating the sounds of the language to speech, and is based on the sound of the phonemes of speech (phonemes are the "units" of speech which are meaningful).

The written form of a language is the 'newer' form and is based on the spoken form. You simply cannot write a word is you cannot 'hear' it: which must have come from either really hearing it, or from reading it (which is a way of reporting a spoken word). Even if you've never seen a word before, on reading and remembering it, your brain will store it according to phonic rules (sound of initial phoneme being the important for this).

Irregular spelling exists, and children have to learn all sorts of tricks to deal with the complexities of spelling rules. This is an achievable task for all who are NT with no SpLD, as evidenced by competent spelling in the general population. Movements, often vocal ones, for spell in reform date back a couple of hundred years but have yet to be successful. So although you could write English as regularly as SerboCroat, I doubt this will be happening soon. Particularly as the variant spellings contain so many vestiges of older meanings and that tends to enrich the language.

Phonics is important in learning to spell securely. The regularity of consonants is high, and with these as the "scaffold" of the word, it is easier to fit in the (often trickier) vowels. However, phonic based knowledge of possible combinations that will produce the right sound between those particular vowel clusters is the only possible approach.

Learnandsay's issue seems to come down to whether a child is praised for understanding the relationship between phonics and spelling, producing decodable writing even though it contains errors; or if the child's spelling is corrected.

I know my dyslexic DS benefited from "zero tolerance" corrections of spellings, but I wouldn't hold him up as an example of what will work for most children. But either approach is, at root, phoneme based (and therefore helped by sound phonics)

The teaching of homonyms is covered by classroom phonics.

mrz · 24/06/2012 10:16

I'm sorry if I it appears that I haven't the patience to describe phonics to learnandsay I perhaps wrongly assumed she isn't interested in knowing that the sound "e" can be written as in bed and as in bread and as in friend or as in said (tear doesn't have the "e" sound)