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To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

999 replies

megabored · 17/06/2012 00:28

DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

  1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
  2. It is too early to put her through this
  3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

  1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
  2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
  3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

OP posts:
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exoticfruits · 01/07/2012 20:32

She also doesn't need help with one thing-she hasn't started and doesn't need to yet.

exoticfruits · 01/07/2012 20:33

Hasn't started formal learning-that is.

APMF · 01/07/2012 21:28

singersgirl - You are wasting your time :)

Most Kumon parents accept that it is just a tool and that its use does not preclude one-to-one quality time, walks in the park, chess, board games etc. However, the Kumon haters found on this thread seem to be conveniently ignoring this point and are basing their rants on the premise that kumon is all these children do and that these parents expect Kumon to be a magic solution when most don't.

You are the latest in a long line of pro Kumon parents who have turned up, expecting a reasonable discussion on the subject, only to bow out once it because obvious that one isn't possible. Spare yourself some grief and bow out now.

Haberdashery · 01/07/2012 21:29

I think it's very different talking about Kumon for an 8 year old who is struggling a bit and a three or four year old who hasn't even started school yet. For an older child, there is certainly a valuable place for automatic recall of number facts. For a young child it will very likely get in the way of the natural exploration of numbers that he or she ought to be enjoying. As the OP has absolutely no way of knowing whether her child will struggle or not by the time she's seven or eight, I think her money right now would be better spent on trips to exciting places, fabulous craft supplies and good books. I expect she'll say she can afford both but honestly, if I had all that spare cash to spend on my child, I'd save it all up for a year or two and take her to see something really amazing - Venice, New York, the Parthenon, Rome, a trip to every zoo in the British Isles, ANYTHING BUT A BUNCH OF WORKSHEETS!

clam · 01/07/2012 21:54

"basing their rants"
And who, exactly, are you accusing of "ranting?" Why do you suppose it's the 'anti Kumon' posters who are 'ranting' whereas the 'pros' are rational and measured? The most unpleasant posts on this thread, as I recall, have been those in favour of Kumon, some of whom have been determined to flatly ignore evidence and opinions cited by professionals, as it is contrary to what they are determined to believe.

But, as with the formula/breast feeding, smacking/no smacking and SAHM vs WOTH debates we see on here, the two sides will never agree.

I've stated my opinion - calmly and rationally I think (no ranting necessary) but am acutely aware that it's not going to make any difference to the OP. Not even sure why she posted in the first place to be honest. But hey, it's her money and her child, so good luck to her.

exoticfruits · 01/07/2012 21:56

I don't think it is a rant. I'm not keen on Kumon for any child, but an 8yr old doing it is very different from a 4 yr old doing it-they are not the same thing.

exoticfruits · 01/07/2012 21:57

Not even sure why she posted in the first place to be honest. But hey, it's her money and her child, so good luck to her

True.

juniper904 · 01/07/2012 22:28

Asking for a bit of a head count: how many of the anti-Kumon people here are teachers?

Perhaps the teachers might have a slightly better understanding of how children learn than the parents, who only have to deal with one DC as opposed to ensuring all 30 children, per annum, progress?

There are at least 6 teachers on this thread. None is pro Kumon. Shouldn't that suggest something? Seeing as we are paid by the tax-payers, and have no incentive to promote nor deride a system, we are still against it. Unless I am mistaken, there isn't a teacher here who is pro Kumon.

greecefan · 01/07/2012 22:29

In response to the original poster, I would suggest that you may want to start studying at a Kumon centre at the end of her year in Reception. Perhaps at the start of the summer holidays of that year, just prior to her starting in Year 1. This will have enabled her to get used to a classroom environment and to be less tired to attend a centre after a day at school.

I am the owner of a Kumon centre and this is what I usually advise.

Attending a centre is preferable over working through the Kumon workbooks at home for all of the added benefits you get from attending a centre. Not only do we work on developing maths and English skills, but also the necessary pre-requisites to be a successful, independent learner over time. We take into account the need to develop concentration, stamina and focus. The need to develop correct pencil holding skills and also to be certain that we are giving the just right amount of work for your particular child. We observe children to see how they tackle the individual worksheets that have been set for them and this informs our decision on how we next progress. It is not all about worksheets, worksheets, worksheets, but about skills, skills, skills.

As a parent, you will need to consider your daily routine and ensure that there is a certain amount of time available to both of you so that the work is completed. Initially, you may spend 10 minutes a day on one subject. As students advance, and in particular, when they start to advance ahead of their age, the time requirement increases. Again, the Centre Instructor will tailor your child's workload to suit the time that you have available every day.

The maths programme initially focusses on developing strong mental maths skills, in terms of accuracy and fluency and there is no conflict with the National Curriculum. The current Government has acknowledged that the National Curriculum in its current form has failed and is failing many children, and standards in this country are poor compared to other countries around the world. They are now realising that children should be more fluent in the basics and are currently reviewing the curriculum to incorporate this, hopefully having less emphasis on a variety of written methods but learning fewer methods more thoroughly - just like Kumon. The ultimate aim of the Kumon maths programme is for children to work with high level maths with competence, confidence and ease. For this to happen, and we have thousands of students who have these accomplishments, children need to complete the foundation work of addition, subtraction and multiplication first and to a very high standard. This then leads to excellence in high school and beyond, and also has an effect on other school subjects as the student develops in to an independent learner with good self-study skills.

For Kumon to be successful, parents have to be committed to the daily routine of around 20 minutes a day for one subject, be encouraging and not "pushy" in their approach and communicate with their Centre Instructor regularly.

I am seeing an increase in the number of younger students enrolling at my Centre. These young minds don't see completing the worksheets as "work," they see it as "grown up." Doing what the "big" children are doing - it is all very aspirational for these young learners and they develop the learning habit and attitude at a young age that stays with them. "Work" is the term that the adults around them use and for some reason is perceived as a negative thing. Practising football skills day after day doesn't seem to attract the same negativity as practising their writing or number skills does.

I hope that at some point in the future, the original poster does decide to investigate Kumon further. There is some great work and great achievements being realised each and every day at the thousands of Kumon centres around the world with children of all abilities. You may find that it is the best thing you have ever done for your child, a sentence one of my customers uttered to me a few weeks ago.

APMF · 01/07/2012 22:41

Judging from a couple of tiger mom articles in the press, kumon is a thriving business in places like Hong Kong and SE Asia, not to mention the UK. As they say, you can't argue with success. So excuse me for giving more weight to that than the musings of a few MN teachers.

clam · 01/07/2012 22:43

"The current Government has acknowledged"

By that, I presume you mean Michael Gove, who's widely derided by education professionals. He has little or no experience of teaching and his pedagogical knowledge is probably on a par with my dog's.

clam · 01/07/2012 22:46

APMF - "you can't argue with success?"
Well, I would argue that China was extremely successful in gaining numerous gold medals in the last Olympics. That doesn't mean that the UK would countenance endorsing their training methods over here.

APMF · 01/07/2012 23:20

In the 2009 OECD survey England?s 15 year olds ranked 28th for maths, 25th for reading and 16th for science. Check out that report, look at the countries that are ranked above us. Then come back and tell me how I should attach move weight to the 'expert' opinions expressed by some of the teachers here on MN.

BlueMoon1084 · 02/07/2012 01:04

Would that be the 2009 OECD survey where although the skill level of English 15 year olds didn't fall we fell down the rankings due to being leap frogged by the countries below us? Those countries managing this by moving away from rote learning and filling in worksheets in favour of a curriculum based on Jerome Bruner's work, moving understanding from concrete to pictorial to abstract?

mrz · 02/07/2012 07:14

That would be the same OECD study that became a bit "questionable" when a number of the high ranking countries admitted being "creative" with the data they submitted wouldn't it?

mrz · 02/07/2012 07:20

Sofia sorry I can't stop laughing long enough to reply

Feenie · 02/07/2012 07:23

A post from pointythings a couple of weeks ago summed up the question marks over that 'data' beautifully:

In fact the figures are entirely incorrect, and have their roots in a deliberately misleading DfE press release. A proper review of the OECD Programme of International Student Assessment (as conducted by the National Foundation for Education Research) shows that standards in reading, maths and science are holding up well; you can only 'create' the 7th-to-25th position trend in the tables for reading if you a) ignore the fact that 12 of the 25 countries are not different by a statistically significant margin; b) that two countries are new to the table; c) two of the countries higher than the UK have the same score but are higher because they start with an earlier letter of the alphabet; d) that the OECD report gives an explicit warning that the tables should not be used for trend assessment, because earlier studies had sample sizes which make this invalid.

APMF · 02/07/2012 08:55

I made the point that England was lowly ranked internationally by the OECD and I get links to how well our pre-schoolers and Finland are doing. Then I get pasted comments about how one shouldn't compare the 2009 data with previous years.

I wasn't aware I was questioning the quality of pre-schooling in this country or the Finnish education model or England's performance compared to previous years Confused.

teacherwith2kids · 02/07/2012 09:33

The point is, APMF, that your statements about where we are ranked by the OECD are based on extremely flawed statistics - as the later posters point out.

It is not obvious where we SHOULD be ranked, because the 'ranking' order is an 'apples and pears' job. It is likely that we would be higher in a properly conplied table in which e.g. all children are included (many countries exclude SEN children).

APMF · 02/07/2012 09:59

All statistics are flawed in some way :) but that doesn't stop some posters from clingling to the validity of the parts that help them make their respective points like how well we educate our pre schoolers or how Finland's inclusive model of education proves that selective models aren't inherently superior.

These kind of reports normally have a plus or minus x points error. Yet we are assuming that any data analysis error underestimates our position as opposed to exaggerating it.

Anyway, rankings aside, one has only to peruse MN threads and look at the schools our DCs are at to see that educationally we aren't doing that great. The 'fact' that perhaps we aren't doing as bad as an OECD study is telling us is a small consolation.

teacherwith2kids · 02/07/2012 10:38

APMF - I am sorry that your DCs are at schools which you don't think are educating them well.

I have the opposite view of the schools my children attend.

I do appy some caution to the view that MN threads are representative of the quality of schooling nationwide, mostly because of the much higher likelihood that someone will post if they have an issue or are unhappy and seeking advice than they would if they think that everything is fine. There is also a very much higher representation of private school parents here - definitely not the 7% / 93% split nationally.

learnandsay · 02/07/2012 14:57

What' have Michael Gove's teaching credentials got to do with his effectiveness as a minister? How many health secretaries have been doctors or defence secretaries been generals?

mrz · 02/07/2012 16:35

APMF then you obviously didn't read the information in the link Hmm or you would know why I posted the Finnish report

"Target population too loosely defined: unequal exclusions

  • Rules allowed countries to exclude up to 5% of the target
population. Exclusions for intellectual disability depended on the professional opinion of the school principal or by other qualified staff
  • a completely uncontrollable source of uncertainty. It appears that
some countries defined additional criteria: Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Poland, and Spain excluded students with dyslexia; Denmark also students with dyscalculia; Luxembourg recently immigrated students.
  • Actual student exclusion rates of OECD countries varied from
0.7% to 7.3%. Canada, Denmark, New Zealand, Spain, and the USA exceeded the 5% limit. Nevertheless, data from these countries were fully included in all analyses. ? On the fringe of the target population: unequal inclusion of learning-disabled students
  • In seven countries the cognitive test was abridged to one hour, and
a special booklet with a selection of easy items was used. In all other countries, student exclusions were decided per case; but even in countries that used the special booklets, some learning-disabled students could be individually excluded. Sampling problems: inconsistent input
  • Sometimes, bewildering inconsistencies: In Sweden
102.5% of all 15-year olds are reported to be enrolled in an educational institution. ? Sampling problems: inconsistent output
  • In South Korea, only 40.5% of PISA participants are
girls. Probably the sampling scheme was inappropriate."

so the OECD table you invoked is as a result complete and utter nonsense
Hmm