To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

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DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
2. It is too early to put her through this
3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

But seeker, my point is that lots of the respondents weren't making exactly the distinction you are making, but saying with a sweep of the hand that all xs must be y, as if their words must be equally true for 4 and 14....

What's your take on why this has become so nasty and heated, btw?

Sieglinde- I didn't see that- I thought most people were thinking specifically about the 4 year old in question.

Your other question? No idea. But it does seem to have stemmed from one particular .....interesting....poster!

sieglinde You might be better directing that question to PooshTun, for all she professes amusement.

I agree - This thread (including what I wrote) would've been completely different if it were about an older child.

@teacher

I am not saying that Kumon has magic powers that will give you a well rounded polite and academic child at the end of the program. I am just questioning the assertion that kids will inevitably rebel as teenagers if subjected to the evils of kumon.

It all comes down to the child itself. If you take a child that isn't particularly academic and you subject that kid to years of kumon or any other type of concentrated and directed learning then of course there will be negative side effects later on in life.

But that is not to say that ALL children will end up that way. Going by the life histories posted by a number of posters a number have 'issues' to do with having pushy parents themselves. But not all 'pushy' parents are the same and not all 'pushed' children are the same.

At primary school DC was two years ahead in maths compared to his classmates. His friends would call him the Human Calculator. The teacher would get him to help some of the others with their maths. Today, he is at a highly regarded selective school and whenever adults ask him which school he goes to he beams when they tell him that he must be a very clever boy to go there.

Basically, DC likes being clever. Yet for many posters they slot in their experiences and prejudices and roll their eyes and predict burn out and rebellion in years to come. It never enters their mind that an academically pushed child can thrive because their own (narrow) experiences tell them it is the work of the Devil.

I say 'narrow' because at least I am prepared to accept that Kumon is not for everybody but some on the other side of the fence, such is their arrogance, are going - its the work of the devil. End of discussion.

Equally the balance between all those a)s and b)s in my long post up thread would be different for an older child, particularly for an older child who had a good concept of number but needed rehearsal to memorise number facts.

"lots of the respondents weren't making exactly the distinction you are making, but saying with a sweep of the hand that all xs must be y, as if their words must be equally true for 4 and 14.."

"You might be better directing that question to PooshTun, for all she professes amusement"

Not guilty. Upthread I said that IMO starting Kumon at the age of 4 was too soon. The points I have been making relates to my son who did Kumon from the age of 5 to 11.

Poosh,

I have a DS exactly as you describe yours - except that he will go to our local comprehensive because it gets better results than any of the 'highly regarded selective private schools' locally.

He is 3+ years ahead in maths. He has exactly the same nickname as your son (though it alternates with his 'sporting' nickname as he is also a very able sportsman). He does not help others with their maths because his (state primary) school teacher seems it as her job that she ensures he makes the maximum progress possible while in her class and she does not see that helping others is a useful use of his time. He loves being clever.

He is not narrowly academically pushed - but he thrives intellectually on a mixed diet of sport, music, discussion, reading newspapers, theatre, books and Scouts. He has never been near Kumon.

I therefore don't see a link between Kumon and being academically able, or between it and having a ferocious work ethic etc.

Your son might be exactly the same without Kumon. Mine might well have been the same with Kumon. The point I am making is that there is no causal link.

We actually did kumon but reading upthread a lot of people's opinions seem to be based on other people's negative experiences. Does everybody appreciate what Kumon looks like for a young child or are you just blindly joining in the chant 'its the work of the Devil. Its the work of the Devil'?

DS was assessed at the age of 5.5 and went in at the level which involved worksheets that had dots that look like a piece from a domino. DS was required to work to the clock and count the dots. I later found that when we played board games (yes we did do kids stuff as well :) ) DS could roll the dice and instantly knew how many spaces to move his token.

I'm guessing that the work sheets for a 4 year old wouldn't be that much different.

Why does something this simple evoke such strong anti emotions? I mean, a stranger passing by would think that that Kumon was preaching creationism and not evolution.

The only reason you should do Kumon is if it's something your children really want to do. On the other hand you can play board games, read together, write letters to the Queen, all those other things that are fun, and don't cost cash.

Love the faux naïveté , PooshTun. That's why I didn't want your posts deleted-you can deny all now.

"I have a DS exactly as you describe yours - except that he will go to our local comprehensive because it gets better results than any of the 'highly regarded selective private schools' locally."

Unfortunately I can't say the same. The local comps here are ok but not great.

"He is 3+ years ahead in maths..... He does not help others with their maths because his (state primary) school teacher seems it as her job that she ensures he makes the maximum progress possible while in her class and she does not see that helping others is a useful use of his time. "

DS's teacher did it to keep him busy . He would finish the 10 minutes maths challenge in 2 minutes for example. Rather than set him harder work she would simply get him to help others that were struggling.

"I therefore don't see a link between Kumon and being academically able, or between it and having a ferocious work ethic etc .... Your son might be exactly the same without Kumon. Mine might well have been the same with Kumon. The point I am making is that there is no causal link"

I am not suggesting a rigid link either :)

All I am saying is that it taught him to focus and to concentrate and to work to the clock.

At DS's school there was no homework at all. It wasn't particularly academic and as I mentioned above the teachers did nothing to develop my son's potential. If he had your school and /or your teacher then I would have been happy to chuck Kumon out the window and save myself £50 a month.

What I am saying is that Kumon suited my personal circumstances. I am not claiming that it automatically churns out high achievers :)

Seeker - You are like some school girl going - look, look, look everybody. PT is being mean to me :o

I've been very good today. Notice that I didn't call you a hypocrite at all today so I've no idea what you are going on about.

In any case, I didn't realise that I ever gave you the impression that I was here to win friends or to be popular. I offer my opinion and advice. People can take it or leave it. They can think of me as a twat or as a righteous dude. Doesn't make that much of a difference to me one way or the other.

I'm not as insecure as you in that that I don't feel a need to solicit others to take my side in a bun fight or to go - there, there seeker. You are the cool one and PT is a twat.

Woman Up Heeker :o

"The only reason you should do Kumon is if it's something your children really want to do"

Given the choice my DS would not want to do kumon. But,then neither would he want to practice his violin, shower daily, go to bed at 7:30pm, eat vegetables etc etc.

Pooshtun - from what I saw almost all hidden start with those worksheets regardless of age and ability. Say able 8/9 year olds given it! I am sure it has nothing todo with their claims that children will make fantastic progress at the end of their first Kumon year.

And you might want to check out the correct spelling of "practice/practise" when used as a verb. There might be a Kumon sheet on it.

Oh for goodness sake stop squabbling like school girls. Anyone can have an opinion that's the idea of mumsnet. Seeker why don't you let it go it's over with now.

Some parents are treating this thread as a boasting sight just because you have a bright three your old they might not turn out bright

Before you all jump in I meant site not sight.

Juniper I think your views on music are very distorted, maybe from a bad teacher.
Music should be fun from the start, otherwise don't do it. It isn't necessarily repetitive nor irritating and how can you expect to master something so quickly. I'd say music everytime.

Hula baby yes that bit about children starting at very low levels is true, makes it look ever so good when they inevitably race through them! (to be fair I suppose it increases self confidence at the start)

Pooshtun. Just wanted to add my dd wants to do all the things your dc doesn't want to do, but I would never push her to do kumon or anything else. I pity your poor child

Redglow, apologies. I am very aware that my posts on this thread could come across as boasting and I did consider anonymising (spelling??) them as 'i know a child who'.

I posted the information I did because professionally and personally I find it very difficult when parents see 'learning through play' and 'academic learning' as polar opposites, whereas my professional and personal experience is that the academic learning which comes through play in the early years is often wider, deeper and far more stretching than that from any 'taught' lesson or worksheet for that age group. Unfortunately for me communicating this opinion on MN, my best examples of this do come from my own children ...

It often takes a trained eye to spot the learning which is taking place in planned 'play' activities in pre-schools and schools - and therefore parents can miss it. That does not mean it is not there....

@clam - Wasn't it Oscar Wilde that said that typo/spelling flames are the lowest form of wit? :o

Come on clam, is insulting my spelling the best you can do?

fuzzpig - yes, the confidence thing is what they told me too when we considered it for DD. It did just the opposite for us. DD looked at it, considered it baby preschool work, then decided maybe it was because she really was bd at maths after all - we;d considered it as DD is able at Maths, but not great at the quick fire stuff (she can do the harder stuff where it gets worked out, etc. but found mental maths tougher to do fast). Just managed to make DD feel bad about herself. We saw this happen with 3 or 4 other children - all DD's age or older - when they were given the counting dots sheets alongside the 4 and 5 year olds.