How can the ofstead inspector possibly know this?

[learnandsay]

In our 2011 ofstead report the lead inspector writes that when starting school the children's abilities and levels of understanding are wide ranging but better than in most schools..

How can he possibly know the abilities of most starting children in most schools? Isn't that statement unknowable, misleading and unhelpful?

Should have added, as teachers it is quite easy to tune into the children's interests (such as Persians!)
Last year I did a topic on Ancient Egypt in Reception as some of the children were role-playing 'being in pyramids'. One child had huge knowledge already, others knew things from watching Horrible Histories...we pick up on these things by watching them play and playing with them.

So if a child was interested in/knows loads about Persians, I might be playing with them in the construction area...
'That's an interesting shaped house you've built Jack.'
'It's the type of house Persians lived in.'
'Really? What's different about a house that Persians live in?'
'They have straw doors but we don't have any straw.' etc. The following week I would plan around this interest for Jack by putting books about Persians in the reading area, straw for straw doors in the construction area and so on.

That's fantastic, little.

Can any other Reception teachers expand on how they've stumbled across some esoteric knowledge a four/five year old happens to possess and how they've expanded upon it? It reminds me a little of the child we were discussing the other day who was interested in infinity. Are any of the teachers out there familiar with the bite size maths games on the BBC website? Do any of you still use abacuses in class? If a girl loves doing test the toad sums on the computer, can she do them in reception? (I'm guessing not, right?) How would a reception teacher translate computer/abacus behaviour to what's available in Reception class? Having fifteen lego blocks and taking away seven isn't quite the same as test the toad because the BBC website game marks your answer and has a delightful animation.

I'm sure schools have their own software, but presumably it takes the children a while to get used to it. Whereas they're already used to the software they're already used to, if you see what I mean.

There isn't a test, although many schools use something called PiPs produced by Durham University to assess children when they start reception but most will assess children over a period of weeks to establish what used to be called the "base line" (entry point). So although it says when starting school it doesn't mean they know everything about the child on the first day or even the first month.
It's actually pretty to establish what a child knows when you work with them every day for a couple of weeks

learn I'm not familiar with bite size but if a parent made me aware that their child enjoyed a maths game on it then I would play it with them, or put it on for them, or permit them to put it on to play independently depending on the situation/their ability.
I have an abacus out in class as part of the continuous provision (the resources that are always available for the children to play with). If I noticed a child playing with it, I'd observe what they were doing, join their play and use it as a teaching opportunity if appropriate and would probably plan to use an abacus in maths the following week e.g. teaching the whole class how to use one for counting, addition, subtraction etc.
I love it when a parent tells me what their child is interested in, especially if it's a bit obscure. Talk to the teacher, your child can tell the teacher, they can bring something in related to their interest, send a photo in of them looking at something to do with their interests...good early years teachers will pick it up.

"Are any of the teachers out there familiar with the bite size maths games on the BBC website?" "Do any of you still use abacuses in class?" "If a girl loves doing test the toad sums on the computer, can she do them in reception? (I'm guessing not, right?)" that would be wrong
I really don't know whether to laugh or cry

mrz Do your school use Pips (just out of interest)? We have used it once, but as I remember we didn't repeat the test later in the year.

Isn't it a bit disruptive if different children have different favourite software? A normal classroom isn't an ICT room. I can't imagine how that would work. Also, presumably four-year-olds aren't very good at explaining what software they use.

They don't all want to play on the computer at the same time, so it doesn't matter. I can usually figure out what they're asking for. 'Can I have that red game on. You know, on the fish website? The one that makes me laugh.' If I can't work it out I ask the parent at the end of the day and they can play it the next day, or whenever.

Be aware of course that I am talking about my own classroom. Different teachers/schools/local authorities vary hugely.

No littlemachine we don't use it because we don't like the idea of testing 4 year olds on a computer.

learnandsay they take turns but we have 4PCs available plus 2 IWBs... but you may find your daughter's teacher also uses the school computer suite. They will also have access to a wide range of quality software

It was one of our ex head's brilliant ideas. I can't remember how we managed to not repeat the test later on. It was awful, and took us away from the children in those crucial first weeks .

I work in a nursery, and even three year olds are capable of saying "I want to play cbeebies/I like the pingu game". And it's not disruptive, they just learn to take turns or share the computer as with anything else.

We also do baseline assessments of children when they start, which is where ofsted get their information about our intake and how we track progress.

A child that likes something at home may not necessarily want to do it at school.
DD has a few favourite (educational) computer games she likes at home, but I don't think she touched a computer at school in her entire Reception year - far too busy doing the stuff she couldn't do at home

that's very true redskyatnight although many less confident children like familiar things initially.

This is a little bit off topic, but why would EYFS specify addition and subtraction to 10 or later to 20, when children using software simply answer the question? test the toad ranges from 1-15. Fix the number square ranges from 1-100. The children don't care what the number is, as long as they get the approval sound from the game when they've given their answer. So, aren't the EYFS designers limiting themselves artificially with targets like up to 10, or numbers up to 20?

My DD's primary school report said that the average child started there with skills above the national average. So they clearly do test.

About 40% of her peer group are at grammar school now

QOD - that shows that they assess upon entry but there are other methods of assessment than testing.

learn The children don't know the EYFS goals, there is no reason for them to. In all of the areas of learning there could potentially be children outperforming the expectations. If necessary the teachers can use further assessment. The expectations in EYFS are changing, so the ones you are looking at will not necessarily apply soon.

The children don't care what the number is, as long as they get the approval sound from the game when they've given their answer.

This makes me feel a bit depressed. I don't mean to be rude, but do you not think this is a limiting way to approach the whole area?

aren't the EYFS designers limiting themselves artificially with targets like up to 10, or numbers up to 20?

It's an arbitrary target, as you say. I would imagine (I am not a teacher) that up to ten takes care of a stage of development where lots of children need physical props to cope with the concept of number and need to physically count or move objects to perform arithmetic. Up to twenty means props would be harder and maybe as annoying as they are helpful so I'm guessing that children who are at this stage are starting to do the arithmetic in their heads and have a vague idea of tens and units. But I'm not a teacher, just going on what I observed with my own five year old.

Sorry, haberd, what's depressing and limiting? I didn't get what you're driving at.

I don't know exactly, I'm probably not explaining it very well. But it sounds as if the children are just doing it for the approval noise not because they are enjoying the maths part. Perhaps you didn't mean it like that.

Haberd, I've only got one daughter old enough. She doesn't really know about maths. She calls them games, (and she loves games.) We also do sums using wooden numbers and maths symbols. We call them number stories and she loves it. (Well, as long as I don't complete more number stories than she does. She's a bit competitive.)

I'm a bit confused " why would EYFS specify addition and subtraction to 10 or later to 20, when children using software simply answer the question?"

They specify because it has been decided thats what the goal for reception children is and the school generally wants to know where the children started the year and where they ended to know whether their teaching is effective.

Also, just because the EYFS might specify numbers to 10, that does not limit individual children making much more progress and understanding much larger numbers - it's an indication of 'expected level', rather than a 'ceiling' IYSWIM?

The child initiated learning aspect of the EYFS is fantastic for children who far exceed these 'expected levels' (formal learning in later years is much more likely to impose a ceiling on what children can show they can do).

I feel there is an unhelpful confusion between 'assessment' and 'testing' - no, Reception children are NOT tested on entry in the vast majority of schools. Reports from pre-school settings (if attended) may give some indication of starting points, but assessment within the first few weeks will be by the same processes of observation and evidence from all kinds of activities at this early stage in the year as it is throughout the EYFS. Child with a name starting with C points at a C on the label on the chalks and says 'that's the first bit of my name', Reception staff note the evidence of letter recognition etc etc

The fact that it's been decided to set the targets that way sounds like what has happened. But I get the impression that once a child has understood the concept of counting she wants to count all of the sea shells or all of the raisins not just twenty of them. I'm a bit concerned that introducing arbitrary targets might be counterproductive in this case. Contrastingly, I think counting up to ten makes perfect sense when numbers are strange things to young children. But once children get the hang of numbers the next natural target appears to be one hundred, then a thousand and so on. When she was three my daughter was perfectly happy counting up to one hundred in the bath. She couldn't remember all the correct units of ten, but naturally could count all of the interim values, because they're all the same. With practice she can now remember all the units of ten. But she understood the concept of counting up to one hundred straight away. She could also manipulate multiple units of tens plus varying units of less than ten before she could correctly count to one hundred repeatedly. So the children get the idea straight away, even if they're short of practice.

So why hold them back with too limited a target?