c of e primary an option but *loathe* C of E, what to do?

[agonisingantiphon]

I namechanged for this one, obviously!

I live in a difficult part of London where some of the primary schools are not all you might hope for. I have a DS, 3 coming up 4.

Some context: I am on the very margins of the catchment of a state primary I would be happy with, but these margins vary from year to year, of course. Another primary near me is failing, head teacher locked in a bitter dispute with the local authority.

My very nearest primary is C of E. The head teacher is good, school improving.

Entry criteria - you have to attend the local C of E church for at least six months prior to submitting application.

I went to (a nonconformist) church as a child but am not religious now.

I've always disliked the idea that people go to church to get their child into a certain school.

However, after some internal debate I decided to suck it up and went to church for the first time in maybe 30 years on Sunday evening.

As former nonconformist I found the whole C of E experience ... well, just wrong! (for lots of reasons, didn't like the distant vicar, the liturgy, the smells and bells etc)

When I got home I checked the school entry criteria again, wondering whether the local Methodist church (i.e. no smells and bells) would do just as well. It won't - those who attend 'other' churches are No 4 or 5 on the list of criteria.

For the last few days I have been debating with myself whether I can live with being a C of E hypocrite for the sake of this pleasant, nearby primary.

Then I switch on the radio this morning and the first thing I hear is that the C of E has declared, as part of the current Govt consultation on gay marriage, that it's against.

I can understand why C of E is taking this position but I wholly disagree.

I don't think, if I've been to church just the once and I am agonising this much about this abstract dilemma (well, abstract for me, anyway) that I should continue with this C of E experiment, do you?

Or should I just continue to suck it up, keep on going?

Insights from other inner city church-going non-believers appreciated :)

How will you feel, if your son goes to the church school, he comes home having been taught various church teachings? There would be a much higher emphasis on religion at the church school - my DCs go to church, the vicar comes to the school, they look at all the religious aspects of the various celebrations throughout the year, they learn Bible teachings including creation (though it is not to the exclusion of evolution and science, it is taught)
If all these things are going to be problematical, maybe it's just not worth it? The point of the church school (when it's not the only school for miles, like some of the rural ones are) is that you want the religious education isn't it?

Smells and Bells in the C of E? Blimey that's high church, I'm Cof E and would be uncomfortable with all that AngloCatholic stuff. Do you have to attend THAT C of E church? There must be a C of E church nearby that is not so "traditional"

Agree with shelscrape - the CofE church I attended as a child was very low key. No gongs at all and no smells either (apart from the odd smelly parishioner from time to time . I would struggle personally to attend church to get my child into a school - but that struggle would extend to any church. Of all of them I still feel a vague nostalgic fondness for the CofE.

PomBear - this is what I'm wondering, really. What I really think is that Christianity is part of our culture (i.e. it's easier to understand some of English literature if you have an understanding of the background etc). I also think most of the ethical teachings in the Bible etc are good values (and shared with many other religions around the world).

But I am evolution/science and (left-ish) libertarianism all the way after that.

Shelscrape - unfortunately the school is associated with that particular C of E church. If I went to say St James Piccadilly, which I understand is very liberal, it would only count for the same as the local Methodist church on the school form.

Most c of e aren't smells and bells. Doesn't have tone that one? Do they have a more low church service you can go to instead? Do they have many kids at their services? (Most high church c of e have limited children, as it is less "child friendly".)

Btw liberal often equals high church. Low church equals evangelical or non conformist.

In theory I don't think you should attend a church that you don't agree with to get your child a school place. In practice I guess you have to do what's best for your family. If 6 months church attendance would get your child into a school that you would want him to to attend (both educationally and spiritually) then maybe it's a price worth paying? I don't think anyone else can really answer this for you.

Ghoul - actually you put it well. It's the distinction between education and spiritual that is bothering me. I want the education but not the spiritual part (obviously DS can choose for himself later if he wants to be religious, which is in line with general nonconformist thinking).

But what I really want is a school I feel reasonably happy for him to attend that is reasonably close to our house ... I guess what everyone wants.

"Insights from other inner city church-going non-believers appreciated"

Inner city church-going non-believers prevent inner city church-going believers from getting school places.

If you don't believe, don't like the Vicar (who you've seen once), don't want to put up with the high anglo-catholicism liturgy & smells and bells, sung responses, servers etc, then find another school. Are you prepared to take Communion every Sunday when it means nothing to you? Oh, and childen being baptised would be expected I should think if CofE observance is your chosen route of entry.

My DS goes to our closest community primary school - we cycle past our very local CofE school and I often wonder how many of the parents still go to Church now their children are in the school. On my irregular visits to Church I don't see many of them there...

RaisinBoys - I didn't take communion when I attended on Sunday, never have, as I'm not baptised. The non conformist church I attended as a child believed in later baptisms. By the time I got to the 'right' age I had decided the whole thing wasn't for me.

Obviously if DS at some stage found religion and got baptised that would be for him to decide but now you put it like that I wouldn't like him to be encouraged down the baptism route at primary school.

Am I concerned about children of believers not getting a place? Hmmm. Well, in my particular part of the world it seems to be every parent for themselves TBH. I've been astonished by the amount of people moving house/renting in the catchment area, moving out of London and all the rest of it. So I've been wavering towards the 'if you can't beat him, join 'em' line recently, as this thread demonstrates.

This just demonstrates once again the utter and immediate need for THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

You went in the evening - perhaps if you tried a morning service you might find other parents there to chat to. Usually the churches attached to schools like that run Sunday schools for the young children during one service of the day.

Are there any community places at the CofE school (when in London, our nearest had a third of its places on community criteria)? If so, could you get in on that? Also are the church-going places on a distance criteria if over-subscribed? How do you fit that footprint?

Also, are particular parishes mentioned by name? High Church CofE churches are actually quite rare, so unless you have to go to a named one which happens to be like that, it should be straightforward to find another with a different style (especially in London, where there are so many).

Our church is High Church and I found it very odd. I attended for personal reasons, and also had my kids baptised. Strangely they did end up going to a coe school (but in my area this is the school people don't want to go to, and we were one of the very few semi-churchgoing families there!).

There is a lot of emphasis on religious teaching - church every week in juniors (once a month for infants), there are bibles in the classroom that they can read when free, and there was RE classes regularly. I actually loved my dc getting a grounding in Christianity - which is the basis of so much history and literature and also gives them a good way of understanding complex issues such as death ? and was very sorry to move away.

You actively dislike the church and know that really you shouldn't be attending in order to get a school place. But in the end you probably will because you want the best school possible for your son. So you have to find a way of being as honest as you can within that position - which is tricky. At the very least, if you do send your ds there, then you should support the school and allow him to get the grounding in Christian belief offered.

But I wouldn't get too hung on it. He will figure things out for himself and develop his own belief system soon enough. I answered questions with a 'that is what the church says; personally I am not sure whether I believe x or y'. My dd had no problem with that, and was happy to announce that she loved Jesus, believed in heaven and so on. A few months after moving to her new school she told me she was no longer a Christian. I felt a bit sad about it, but does go to show that any religious teaching doesn't go very deep at this age.

Thanks for these helpful and thoughtful responses.

There is a distance criteria (and we are in the street closest to the school). So, yes, it may be possible that DS is allocated a place even if I don't go to church.

I ought to try the morning service, yes, if I ponder on it all some more and decide to keep going along, and there is a Sunday school attached. Judging by the amount collected this week (posted in the church) it's a busy service.

And I should go and see the school I am on the edge of the catchment for (which I would prefer on the grounds that its non-religious although further away).

I guess I should also go and see the poorly performing school - to be fair to it my views are all based on hearsay (although pretty good hearsay).

Clinkclink - you put it well about trying to find some honesty somewhere within a hard position.

Hullygully - I don't disagree with you in principle. But in practice I have to send DS to school somewhere!

Be careful agonising, my friend had to do the church thing, and her vicar (a sly chap) not only used to "pop by" for edifying chats, but inveigled her into hosting little church mothery meets etc.

"Well, in my particular part of the world it seems to be every parent for themselves TBH"

Yes, sadly I suppose it is. The only question you have to answer is whether you can live with the hypocrisy. If you can, then great.

You misunderstand me about baptism. If you are seeking entry via religious observance, the expectation is that the child has already been baptised - not that you wait until they have "found religion".

The supplementary admittance forms ask about family attendance at church and family involvement in church activities - just pitching up for 6 months is not enough these days. There is an expectation that the family is involved in church life - serving on committees, children acting as altar servers etc etc.

Good luck - hope you resolve your dilemma & your child is happy at school

I think you need to research a bit more as you say. The other local parents will possibly be a good source of information as will the schools themselves. You need to get the feel of the schools too. Our local highly achieving school would be the very last place I would want to send my children even though the competition for it is fierce.
One thing to watch for is that here you can apply for a local place or a church place but not both. You may need to find out what the reasonable chance of getting in on either is and take your chances.
Inner city schools often have high turnover rates so look into that. Schools that are oversubscribed at reception sometimes have places come up from year 1 upwards.
Lastly, it's not too early to consider secondaries. If you choices then involve church schools that might make things plainer.

Definitely check out the poorly performing schools. My children attend a supposed 'rough' school in London. Most of the parents who criticise it have never set foot in it. I can't tell you how often parents who were 'forced' to come to our school say it is nothing like they were led to expect.

Thanks everyone (sorry for the slight hiatus, MN seemed to go down for a bit over lunchtime, did anyone else get that?).

I found this thread really helpful.

Reading it back to myself I am wondering 'Antiphon, what were you thinking going to church?'

I think I am getting a bit too caught up in everyone else's frantic scramble and thinking I have to do the same.

Incidentally, there are no church secondaries locally - it's go to the nearest or shell out the best part of a million quid to move into the catchment of the supposed hot one.

OK, well off I go to a few primary school visits :)

DO you have to go to that c of e church? There are plenty of low c of e churches in London, may of which have a non-comformist informal feel about them...

Definitely visit all the schools. My kids go to the "rough", "poorly performing" school that everyone avoids. It's lovely, they are doing very well indeed and I laugh at the parents who are driving miles every week to avoid it.

No guarantee that yours is the same. But do not rely on hearsay.