Private or state primary to get child into grammar secondary school

[Blossom8]

I know there is alot of controversy for parents tutoring, paying for their child to get into a selective grammar school but I don't want to start a debate on that, just advice.

I want my child to go to grammar school when she is 11. The only grammar school in our borough is very, very competitive and I want to give my child the best opportunity to gain a place. My dilemma is, do you think a private prep/primary would stand her a better chance of passing the 11+ as opposed to going to an average primary school with extra tuition?

I'm an average earner and will have to make a few sacrifices if we decide to go down the private prep route but I welcome your opinions especially those parents who were faced with this dilemma. Thanks

Rabbit - I am sure that they do, in any areas. There is a very definite 'to 11' and 'to 13' split where I live, and I just wanted to make certain that the OP was aware that might be the case.

It also depends on the area - grammar school tests can be very like the 'classic' 11+ or very different, depending on the area, so a school which prepares for 'private school entrance at 11+' may still not prepare a child in a focused enough way for the grammar school tests to give any great advantage over a state primary.

[Oh, and coaching is pretty much universal across all sectors - even those children in hothouse grammar school preparation private primaries STILL have almost all children attending after school coaching as well!]

Where we are Bucks/Berks borders those that choose private school still have to pay for tuition for 11+ as the schools don't prepare. Ds's school only goes to 11 but the expectation (and push) is to go on to the senior school rather than 11+. A lot of parents like the idea that their dcs have the same school friends from 3 to 18.

OP, my advice would be to not spend on a private education at this point. If your DD turns out to be very bright; spend the money on practice materials and possibly a tutor in year 5. If your DD doesn't get into the grammar you may want to think about private education for secondary, if there are no good comps nearby. No offence but I don't think you can necessarily gage ability at a young age. My DD2 for example is probably the brighter child but couldn't get into a superselective unlike DD1 because she is dyslexic.

I really struggled with private fees even though I earn more than average. It is not just the fees but uniform, trips, meals, music lessons etc etc - it all mounts up and it is extortionate in some cases. Save your money for now.

Hi, teacherwith2kids - just to clarify, I wasn't talking about private schools doing 11+ entrance exams in terms of them helping prepare for state school 11+ exams - just pointing out that she wouldn't be left in limbo if her child were state educated until 11 and then had to work out what prep school to fit her child into for a couple of years until the 13+ (ie that she could then probably get her child into a 11-18 private school, not an 8-13 year olds' prep school). In other words, just underlining my opinion that if the state secondary schools in an area are pretty poor, apart from one very difficult to get into school, saving money for secondary level education is more sensible as a back up plan!

Prep schools also prepare girls for 11+ transfer, which is traditionally the normal point, and also increasingly for 11+ pre-tests as part of the route to a growing number of CE/other 13+ entry schools. They won't be teaching a state 11+ style exam, but will be covering VR, NVR etc (or at least the good ones will) for competitive, not qualifying, exams. Also, prep schools need parents who are satisfied with destination schools, and this increasingly means competent 11+ preparations (Hill House, for example, a decade ago used to be Quite Firm about expectation of boys staying to 13, but is now more modern and flexible)

But you do need to enquire, just to make sure you don't end up with a hidebound school (but those who do not provide a service responsive to what parents actually want on big questions are pretty easy to spot).

All that said, grammar school exams in heavily subscribed areas are so very competitive that even very high marks may be insufficient. It's an exam you cannot count on passing well enough. You may want to think about what you would do if DC did not secure a grammar place. If the answer includes swerving local comprehensives at all costs, then you might want to think about the long-term affordability. State school plus tutor is probably cheaper than prep school, let alone prep school plus tutor.

Move to kent!! Half of our state primary school are going to grammar schoool, though it is a good state primary with a 'favourable' catchment area. Seriously in your position I would send to state, then tutor and if that isn't enough send to private school for secondary. An alternative is to start off state and then go for 7+ exams, quite a few parents here do that.

Do be realistic though, my dd1 at 3 was doing really well, refused to work for first year or so of primary, now is overtaking children who were ahead in reception. Learning isn't a linear process, things come along such as teachers they don't like, friendship issues etc, that would happen wherever she goes.

I would see the goal as good GCSE/A levels and the schools as different ways of achieving this. Also you need to consider how your dd might feel if she is the only one of her friends who can't afford to go skiing and go to school, and what if you have a second child?

3duracell - could you very kindly give me some more info on Kent? Thinking of moving so this could be enormously helpful. Thank you.

OP please excuse the highjack! For what it's worth, I think a good (hopefully this is an option where you live) state primary would be great. You wouldn't have the tremendous financial pressure, and could also afford music lessons. As I'm sure you're aware, there are places at grammar schools and at private secondaries that are reserved for those with musical skill/ability. You might check out Colourstrings in north London, an organisation with an excellent record for musical education and also for gaining students scholarships and music placements.

Also, as other posters have mentioned you can supplement with tutoring, and travel and theatre - things that you would be hard pressed to afford if you went private.

I wish you luck!

I woukd check wiht any prep school what the numbers of DC going to grammar at 11 is, and what they specifically do to help.

Some preps will be very good at this and most pupils will toddle off to grammar. Some preps are not gearing towards an move at 11 at all.

there are some really useful advice here - thank you. We turned down one prep who do prepare for the 11+ but it mean't having to move my daughter from her ofsted rated outstanding nursery to the prep nursery when she turns 3 and a half which we thought was pointless. We are back on their waiting list to see if another opportunity arises in the future.

We have another prep which don't prepares the pupils for the 11+ as I imagine they want them to transfer to their senior school but their recent inspection has rated them outstanding in both academic and pastoral care. We did visit our local state primary rated good by ofsted but I've heard they've recently had high staff turnovers and some disgruntled parents with the way the school is handled.

People on here seem to favour the state with extra tuition so this approach seems tempting especially if she does not get into grammar and we need to pay for private secondary, hopefully she will be good enough to get in!

We have sent our DD to an all girls pre prep and prep school. Being an all girls school it only goes top the end of yr 6. It is in the same town as the Grammar schools and prepares them hugely for 11 +.
I am praying this will be our 'pink' ticket!

Personally, if I was hell bent on the local grammar (and thought it suited my child's personality/abilities) and finances were borderline - I would go for a good State, and opt for tutoring later on if you still think the grammar is the right place to aim for. It does keep more options open, financially, for future educational choices maybe....and its very early days for long term decisions.

If I had chosen my dd1's future based on who I thought she was/would be aged 3, I might have chosen very differently - as it turns out, she is bright but utterly unmotivated by academic subjects, and passionate about the arts/design. She is now in Y3, and we still have time to decide about secondary education, tutoring, etc.

Plus, the local secondary - which was utterly unthinkable when dd1 was 3 - has turned itself around and looks to be really very good by the time she is 11. Soooo much can change in a few years - just something to bear in mind!

Most children who go into the reception class will have gone to the nursery at the private school so if you do decide to go down sending her to pre prep i would recommend changing now and putting her in the nursery there so she will already have know her peers for two years before entering reception.
Also at my Private school my daughter attended from 3 and by the time she went into reception knew all the teachers in pre prep and prep as the nursery have it lessons, music lessons, coooking and pe all with the relevant teachers up the school.

Kent
Funnily enough there are 4 areas (may even be more) in Kent offering 11+
Kent
Medway
Bexley
Bromley
Most of Kent sit the Kent test. If you go to a Kent primary you sit this
In Medway they have their own mini borough council ad set their own 11+
Likewise London boro's Bexley and Bromley.

You can sit any paper but if you're school isn't in that part of Kent you have to apply. This is useful when you live on borders.

Bromley aside these take approx 20% of children.
A very high percentage come from private (ratio wise these children are more likely to get in).
State primaries do not coach or teach for the exam.
If you have unauthorised absence the schools may say they would not assist in any appeals for the exam.

For the best info use the eleven plus forum website.

Your!iPhone nonsense.
They teach you your shit at grammar. They just teach you you're shit at comps
(an all time fave Kent grammar saying in my day!) H

Your child is 3 years old.

Whatever you do you need to know that you can have a back-up plan if your child does not pass the 11+ in 7 years time.

Grammar schools might not even exist then! Children level out, or suddenly blossom, or follow a straight trajectory - you can't predict.

You might do better to save your money as a back up for private school or to move house at secondary if you don't like any of the available options by the time your child is ready for secondary.

She's 3!

What if she turns out not to be academic at all?
What if she could be coached to get in to a grammar but then struggled to keep up and was miserable?

I think you are crackers. Send her to the good state primary and take another view, when you have some clear sense of her abilities in maybe 5 years time.

My DD went to a rubbish (really really rubbish, special measures all that stuff) state primary, had no private tutoring but got in to the local grammar despite being poorly day of tests. She was only girl in her school to so. The school is the top school in our area for results and this year School was in top 50 nationally.
I really believe that DC should not be tutored etc to get into such a school - if they cannot get in on natural ability they will struggle. DD still struggled to fit in emotionally as she has health issues and the schools pastoral care was rubbish. This kind of school expect DC to be very tough emotionally - my DD isn't.
Your DD is very very young - send her to as good a state primary as you can locally and support her at home. I'm not flaming you for hothousing - you want the best for her - but if she finds state school is wrong for her you can always change later. You have plenty of time. :)

My DD is at a super selective grammar. From a class of 27, about 4, of which she is one, attended private junior schools. (Hers was the junior school of a school which went to 6th form, so not a prep, per se.)

It does depend on the kind of tests set at the 11+, but I'm not really convinced that a private school can prepare your DC for the 11+, any better than you can with a few practise papers, despite popular opinion.

No advice really (although I did go to a highly competitive grammar from a state primary myself), but there was a pull out in The Times a couple of months ago about how to give your child a 'private' education at a state school. Might be worth getting hold of it? It was things like offering music lessons (cheapest instrument: the voice) as a way to enrich their education.

Personally, if fees were going to be difficult to afford, I would be thinking of what I could add on to a state education.

Jaffaswife, lots of all girls schools go to 18. Maybe not where you are, but all GDST schools do, for example.

Actually, the child is 2. She will be 3 at the end of the month.

Op have a look here it lists grammar schools in the country (wiki entry) Kent has 11 + all over it is one of few counties still to keep the grammar system.. To add to the list up higher Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge have grammar schools (Tonbridge a super selective boys Judd Kent is a wonderful area to live in Personally I live in the area near to Surrey and Sussex we are looking at grammar schools for my year 5 son at the moment (and Judd is one of the possibilities he has the ability but obviously we can not tell until he has taken the test) In our case he is in a state school and has had tutoring this last year.

Look at the train links some are better than others. Where I live there is a train service but it is hourly others will find this a inconvinence and would prefer other areas to have more frequent service. For us we wanted to be within 30 mins drive of Mil so this was what we picked..

3 is a bit young for grammar school. Send her to spelling and syntax school instead. Or maybe she'd enjoy tumbletots?

The problem with Kent, being a grammar school system county, is that the non-grammar schools do not tend to perform as well as comprehensive schools, as the top 20% of children by ability are mainly being educated elsewhere. If you are therefore a great believer in the idea that your child will do better if surrounded by very bright children who up her game (as a lot of people enamoured of the grammar school system are) and if taught in a traditional way, then you will be even less happy going to a non-grammar school in Kent than you would in any other county. ie it is an awful county to be in if your child does not pass the 11 plus.

You need a Plan B. There is no way to guarantee passing the 11+.