primary school appeal based on distance

[lilmum777]

Hi, I'm new to mumsnet. I would be really grateful for some advice/guidance. We have applied for a reception place to start Sep '12.
Our first choice of school is actually our closest school. This year their catchment after SEN, medical and siblings was 0.545miles. We are 0.545miles away according to the LA measurements. However, we did not get offered a place because there was another family with the same distance and the addmissions dept went to the fourth decimal place.
The family that got offered a place are 0.5447miles away and we are 0.5448miles away. That is 16cm!!
I really think that they should have selected between us using random computer selection. I have been trying to find out about the accuracy of measurements without any luck. How can they accurately measure 16cm??
They use geocodes and it's 'as the crow flies'.
I'm really stuck. I think for a successful appeal outcome we would have to prove that they should have used random selection. But I need to prove that the margin of error in measuring 0.0001miles is too great to consider.
Any ideas?

Gosh what a nightmare. My parents won an appeal based on the fact that in previous years the number of pupils had been higher - worth checking if they have had an extra child on roll in recent intakes.

Why should they have used random selection rather than distance from school? Not sure you could prove that.

crikey that's the smallest distance I've ever heard of, for someone to miss out! It must make you first on the waiting list though.

Sorry have no advice to give you but wishing you all the best for your appeal.

thanks for all responding! wonderstuff, according to the rules the LA follow, if there are two homes that are equidistant from the school then they are meant to go to a random selection between the two. So basically, if they had done that then at least we would have a fair chance. The fast that they've ruled us out for 16cm seems unfair as I don't understand how they can measure to that accuracy.

thanks GateGipsy x

If that is the rule then you should have grounds - such a small distance, are they going on distance to the boundries of your property or distance to your door? I imagine you could measure it slightly differently and have your home nearer than the other one as well. If they measure as the crow flies, then how does it work out based on route to school? Surely more valid measurement? Good luck - starting school is stressful enough without having to appeal x

What the rules do not say is what is considered to be the same distance and that is considered to be at the point where the computer program cannot distinguish any difference in the distance, that is the accuracy of the computer program.
What you need to do is challenge the LA to confirm what the accuracy of the computer program is. If at the appeal they cannot show that the accuracy is down to 0.0001 of a mile then they have not carried out the admission criteria correctly but the appeal panel will be stuck with the problem that they cannot possibly say who would have got the place because by definition it is a random allocation. Not sure what then would happen, but I think the temptation must be to allocate a place for both.
Your problem is that I know from appeals that the accuracy is possible to go down to 4 decimal places and I am guessing they will be using the same computer program. So it would be wise to accept that you will probably lose but I would definitely appeal as I bet the LA will not have had to go to this accuracy often and you need to make them prove the validity of the claim rather than just accept it.

Hi, I'm also new to mumsnet and had a slightly similar query. Sorry if I've hijacked the thread.

We didn't get into our nearest school (tiny catchment about half the distance mentioned in the first post) despite my child attending nursery there. We're 7 on the waiting list but I've been told by friends about people who are at places 3 and 6. When I've printed out a map on Google maps, and measured from the school to our homes with a ruler, we are clearly nearer than both of these. Another friend mysteriously moved six places up the list from one phone call to the next.

How do I obtain information about waiting lists (ie. measured distances and subsequent allocation of places)? The education authority says it will not give out personal data nor divulge who holds which place. If I hadn't been given information by personal friends, how would I know? (The person at the education authority said: 'You can talk among your friends but I can't give any information'.) Presumably if a place did come up, it would be offered (and accepted) by whoever came first on the list, whether or not they were actually closer. Can this be reversed if we did find we are nearer?

I wonder whether to write to the education authority to ask for this information under the Freedom of Information Act, but would it be exempt? Also, deadline for appeals is 16 May but I am not sure we can appeal on the basis of a waiting list place.

As a final (desperate) measure, our garden is 40ft long - do they measure to the house or the edge of the property?

Advice gratefully received - apologies for the long post.

the measurement is using geocodes, as far as I understand, it's using the centrepoint of our property and the centrepoint of the school (as the school has more than one entrance). Interestingly, the LA changed the way they measure from last year. According to last years measurements we were 0.51 miles away.
So frustrating!
admission thanks for your input too, how do we make them prove the validity of their measurement though? Won't they just say that it's been tested and therefore they are using it?

sorry about this, I can't find how to do the bit where you can copy and quote in text
wonderstuff the measurement is using geocodes, as far as I understand, it's using the centrepoint of our property and the centrepoint of the school (as the school has more than one entrance). Interestingly, the LA changed the way they measure from last year. According to last years measurements we were 0.51 miles away.
So frustrating! We have been told we have a good chance on the WL, but it's just down to luck then.
admission thanks for your input too, how do we make them prove the validity of their measurement though? Won't they just say that it's been tested and therefore they are using it?

lilmum777 - It should not be enough for them to simply assert that their system is right. They will need to produce evidence to show that the system is actually capable of measurements that precise and that the underlying data is that precise.

Ladyday - The system used by the LA will be more accurate than printing a map from Google and measuring with a ruler! But you do need to check how distances are measured. Some LAs use the straight line distance, others use the shortest walking route or similar.

The council is absolutely right that they cannot say who is where on the waiting list or give out any other kind of personal data. That would be a breach of the Data Protection Act. The Freedom of Information Act does not override the DPA so you would not get any information that way.

The deadline for appeals is purely for administrative convenience. They have to hear your appeal even if you miss that deadline.

If you believe a child has been incorrectly admitted from the waiting list ahead of you, you should appeal on that basis. It will then be up to the LA to show that they got it right.

prh47bridge Thank you for your suggestions. We are waiting for the appeal pack to arrive. Do you think we should try and find out ourselves about the accuracy of their system? I have tried but don't really know where to start. I tried contacting a company that does these sorts of measurements, but I didn't get through to anyone. Also, according to their measurement used last year, out measurement was 0.51miles. Do you think we can we use this to our advantage?

I don't think you will be able to check the accuracy for yourself. You would need to know which system they are using. The accuracy of the software is usually very good. What matters is the accuracy of the underlying data.

Was the measurement last year for nursery? They may have been using a different basis for measurement and they may also use a different point on the school property for the nursery. You can enquire as to the reason for the difference but it may not help you.

They said that they changed from using the school entry gate to using the centre point of the school building as there are more than one entry points.
As far as I understand, from a telephone conversation I had with the admissions staff, they use geocodes.

Oh, there is no attached nursery.

By underlying data, do you mean the geocodes?

Lilmum - organise a meeting with the admissions, ask them to explain to you how its system can possibly accurately measure 0.001miles - 16cm seems unreasonable. I am sure the program will spit out a numebr to 4 decimal places, but is this in fact an accurate measurement? Is the software calibrated to this accuracy?

If they can't/won't explain this to you, at least find the name of the software they are using and perhaps google/software manufacturers might have details as to the accuracy of their software.

The good news is you must be first on the list, so hopefully you'll get a place before Sept, regardless of appeal outcome.

Ladyday the LEA won't give you the measurements of other people, but it should be transparent what your distance is, how it was measured etc. If you feel this isn't correct, then say so and get it checked. But, if you hear/know of other people further away being offered places, you would be allowed to call them and voice this concern, however these children may be ranking higher because of medical need, special consideration or maybe they lied about their address - but that is out of your control ultimately.

The underlying data is the mapping information used. Geocodes is a particular system for specifying mapping information.

I disagree with Jenny70 on one point. If the data is correct the software should be able to calculate to 4 decimal places or more. It is a very straightforward calculation and doesn't need any calibration.

Jenny thank you. We will find out our position on the WL on/after 16th May. So it may be an idea to just hang on and wait until then to see if we get a place. Not sure whether to prepare an appeal now or wait until then. It seems that there is quite a lot of work invloved and it may actually turn out to be unnecessary.
prh47bridge I don't want to annoy the admissions team as I think we need them to be sympathetic towards us, which so far they seem to be. However, I will ask them if they can supply me with the mapping information they have used. This may help to clarify what kind of accuracy is possible.

I'm so grateful for all your advice and guidance so far. Thank you all

Thanks for all the advice given.

16cm! Yes, I would think that the accuracy would be in question.

However, I would guess you must be #1 on the waiting list, or close to it. Likely you will eventually get a place.

If the data is correct the software should be able to calculate to 4 decimal places or more. It is a very straightforward calculation and doesn't need any calibration.

The calculation may be very straightforward and certainly any formula can be calculated to accurately to many decimal places, but the question is is the formula used good to measure actual distances to that degree of accuracy. Does it account for small hills or valleys that may increase the actual distance between the two points, for example? If you are saying that you are giving one family priority over another because their home is acutally 16 cm further away then your program has to show that it is able to accurately measure this distance. Otherwise, they're using a formula that may give an unfair advantage and I would think might be grounds for appeal.

• sorry- good enough

Most LAs use straight line distance. That would ignore hills, valleys, obstacles, etc. When looking at walking routes the question is again the accuracy of the underlying data. The calculation is still straightforward.

In general, as Admission says, a GIS is perfectly capable of measuring to this level of accuracy and it is likely that the underlying mapping data is sufficiently accurate to support this.

''measuring to this degree of accuracy"' Hmm.

Two points

1. The distance being measured is between two points.

A point at the school, which it seems has now been defined as something like the centroid of the school buildings. Whatever as long as the same point is used in each case its exact location does not matter.

A point at the applicants address. Now WHERE is that exactly? front gate? front door (would make the difference.) Could a wide doorstep matter?

1. How is the software doing the calculation? is it to n significant figures or to n places? (different results possible.) Is it using floating point arithmetic? and if so to how many digits?

Its so many years since I did any numerical analysis that I cant go any further than to suggest by this that there are questions to be asked.

I would need to be convinced both that the software can discriminate down to 16 cms AND that the interval measured is between two relevant points...