Garnering opinions please: Independent pre-Prep or local state "First" school...

[Muckamuck]

...up until age 8 before moving the DC to an Independent Prep (from 8-13)? I appreciate that much will come down to the specific schools but - generally speaking - what I'm trying to ascertain is whether there's much point in paying for a private education in the early years (4-7), or whether a state school would do broadly the same thing.

Beyond the obvious advantage of smaller class sizes, do children at private pre-Prep schools gain much from the (supposed) extra resources and activities available, or is it all a bit wasted on them in the early years?

Currently trying to decide between a local village First school (state) and an independent pre-Prep which is quite a bit further afield. (Already decided to opt for private Prep from the age of 8). Money is not growing on the proverbial trees (will hopefully be less of a stretch a few years down the line) but can be scrabbled around for made available if it's felt that that's the best option for the DC. Trying to keep matters financial out of the decision-making process and focus instead on the individual merits of said schools (easier said than done).

I appreciate this subject (broadly) has been done to death but I don't think any of the previous threads have dealt with this specific issue, in particular considering state "first" (as opposed to a state primary) school versus private pre-Prep education.

No flaming please. I am state-educated, DH is not. We don't have any pretensions and aren't presumptuous (I hope). Would really appreciate your thoughts/experiences. Thank you.

We had the same dilemma and went for the private pre prep in the end. DS is now in year 1 and doing really well.

Small class sizes are a definite benefit - and I think he's progressing faster than friends children of the same age at state school. He's now a free reader, is doing maths and spellings at yr2 plus level and has had an amazing range of trips and experiences.

He might have done all those things at state school though, I can't really make a proper comparison. But he's happy

Thanks therein, nice to know we're not the only ones and good to hear that your DS is happy .

Hardly a dilemma but it feels like such a ridiculously important decision at this point. It's bringing out a lot of neurosis; almost insomnia-inducing! I worry about getting it "wrong" and regretting the eventual decision, even though the rational part of me realises this is a bit silly .

I understand what you are going through as we have only just been through the same. We decided to take the state school because we really liked it when we visited. It is one of the highly rated ones in the borough and whenever I told anyone we were applying for it the response was forget it, it's difficult to get in etc. And even now we have the place I still think the council will come back to say it was a mistake.

We felt that since we didn't know if either school would suit our dd until she started at the school and if we don't take the place and went private, it would be much more difficult to get a state school just as good at a later date. But it might be easier to go private at 7+ if necessary.

We are going with a positive approach but if we find it's not the right place for her we won't hesitate to move her.

If the local state school's popular and good, I would leave your place there for someone who really wants to stick within the state system. If not so great/popular, do take it up.

In response to Herein.

When my dc was in year 1 I too could say: he's progressing faster than friends children of the same age at state school. He's now a free reader, is doing maths and spellings at yr2 plus level and has had an amazing range of trips and experiences.

Except dc goes to a STATE school and not even a good one. He was progressing faster than many friends in private.

With your financial situation and the fact it's a first school so your dc and all their friends will move at 7 anyway (does it go to 7 or 8), I would go state and then switch later on. Up until 7 unless he first school is a disaster you can make up for any differences at home.

Why - I'm so not looking to get into a fight, but if you re-read the paragraph after the one you've quoted you'll see that I've acknowledged that he could have done just as well in the state system. But I'll never know, we've made the decision and I'm not going to spend loads of time wondering how DS would have done at another school. All I know is that he is happy and achieving.

My daughter is in reception in a pre prep. It was the right decision for us. She was quite reserved with other children and I was concerned she would simply get 'lost' in a class of 30, 4 year olds, many of whom would seek out teacher attention - whereas she would have sat quietly and perhaps gone unnoticed! She is excelling in a class of 12 - there are 2 parallel classes so still plenty of social opportunity. I obviously have no idea of how she would be doing in the state sector, she is bright so presumably reasonably well, but who's to know? She is however already significantly ahead of her peers in the state sector. She is a studious kind of child who likes to be organised and at one time 'free play' would have been her worst nightmare - so the slightly more structured approach in her pre prep suits her well. Having said that, they have really brought her out of her shell and she has huge amounts of confidence now!
If the prep you are looking at is in any way selective it may be good to go to a pre prep as it will not only prepare your child academically, but also introduce the more structured approach to learning that the prep will know doubt have.

What is a first school? Never heard of one. Is it an infant school? I would always choose a state school in the first instance. You might even find that they learn something and thrive. Most children do, after all. And I know you wanted financial matters kept out of it but I can't help but think that if you forgo pre-prep you'll save about £48,000 per child (at a conservative estimate). And you may find they are thriving so much that you want to take a punt on a state junior school, which will take your savings per child to £96,000. And then you might even decide that as state primary has served them so well you could have a little try of a state secondary option, meaning that you will have saved £180,000 per child over their entire school careers. That's enough to buy them each a nice flat to live in. Personally I'd rather have a flat and an education than just an education. It seems like a no-brainer to me to try state school first and move if you are not happy.

Sorry, I think the only way you can decide is to look at the state school, look at the pre-prep, know your own child and then make up your own mind. You tend to get a feel for a place if you look around it and that has quite a big influence on your final decision, even if it is just a feeling, not a logical, objective conclusion based on firm evidence. One thing I no longer agree with, though, is that a timid child will get "lost" in a class of 30. I've had two reserved, timid children go into a 2-form entry primary school and not get lost or feel overwhelmed at all, the extra numbers have merely increased their chances of finding other children they get along with, they were rapidly made to feel safe, secure and happy and the teachers never seem to have failed to notice my children, either! It has helped in this respect that their school is a five minute walk away and they live amongst the children they go to school with - largely because of the "feeling" that this makes it more of a genuine community.

Basically, what are YOU looking for for your child? What resources do YOU expect to see? What sort of personality does your dc have and how easily does he/she pick up new skills? Do you think your dc may need smaller class sizes and more individual attention than most other children to be able to pick up, eg, strong reading and writing skills? What do you want to be able to organise for or do with your child outside of school, if anything, and therefore not need a school to provide? After all, if you are happy, for example, to organise swimming lessons after school for your dc, then why would you need the school to have a swimming pool? You could pay for individual swimming lessons and a state education for a lot less than the cost of a pre-prep with a swimming pool.

Scummy,

Briefly on 'First Schools'..

Most of the country has a '2-tier' school system - primary and secondary. (Sometimes primary is divided into Infant and Junior, but the transition point is the same - end of year 6).

A few areas have '3-tier' systems - first, middle and upper. First schools go up to the end of Year 4 or year 5 (depending on area), middle schools typically contain 3 years up to the end of year 7 or year 8, upper schools then do year 8 or 9 to the end of schooling.

It's just a different way of organising schools. Quite a lot of the areas with 3 tiers have small rural First schools, feeing into bigger Middle schools with children bing bussed in, then several middle schools feeding into one Upper school which is often in the nearest significant town.

Muckamuck,

In your position I would give state a go and then move your child if they are not thriving. It's much easier to move state - private in the early years than it is to move private to state...and you could save a lot of money! The only case in which I wouldn't advise it is if the prep school is highly selective, as the pre-prep will devote a LOT of time to preparing for Prep entrance, whereas the state first one will devote none at all...

Therein - sorry I didn't see that line I must confess

I'm not at all anti-private either and might have given that impression.

I think the gap between state and private probably widens on average in KS2/ prep.

We had the same problem a couple of years ago and having looked at the privates (all bar one!), our local state was outstanding and we felt that if she was going to do well anywhere it would be there. It was also in the same village, so would make local friends and we would revisit the decision at Year 3. This was also partly because we weren't so keen on the preprep part of one school and disliked the 'snobby' head in the other!

Last September, at the start of Year 2, we moved her from the state to private (the one that we hadn't visited until then).

I won't go into the reasons for moving her, but it was such a huge decision for us, that went fairly smoothly for her, however, there is definately a difference in the standard she was at (although this will depend on the school), so she is still catching up a little, mainly in maths and writing, but it is getting there.

I frequently ask myself, what would she have been like if she had been there from Reception!

However, the advantage of being in the state school for the first two years, is that she has made some lovely friends in the village - who we still see and meet at Brownies and of course saved ourselves the sum of around £18,000 in fees - which when you look at it that way, is a huge amount.

Go visit the schools, see what the differences are, speak to other parents. It is so difficult, because you don't know how your child will be at school, some children will do well wherever they are, some seem to need that little extra input and benefit from smaller classes, unfortunately you won't know what type your child will be until they start!

Just be aware that writing a cheque out for £2,000 at the start of each term, does hurt a bit and it really hits you the first time you do it, of what a commitment it is!

OH (privately educated), has major regrets we didn't send her sooner, me (state educated), not so much, because of the friends she made, but I still can't stop thinking 'What if' we had, especially when I see her working so hard.

I think for us, school choice was the hardest decision we have had to make for our dd so far!!!

Ours did state cofe primary. DS until 8 when he sat the entrance exam for a very selective prep school which feeds directly into an exceptionally academic London day school. He was a bright boy and had lots of support at home and we only moved him because he was not getting the intellectual stimulation he needed at the state primary. DD who is top average had her needs met very well at the same school through to 11.

Ultimately it is your decision because you have first hand experience of the local schools and your own children and know what will suit them best. I think it is fair to say though that it is much easier to move from state to independent than vice versa (ie, from a class of 30 to a class of, say, 20) and if finances are likely to be squeezed it is probably better to safeguard them for later rather than to start as you might not be able to continue.

The striking difference in my opinion is that from 8 in the independent sector there is specialised teaching (there was for us anyway) in all subjects and that is a huge advantage and where the state system needs to start heading in order to fulfil the potential of all children and to start effecting much needed improvements across the board.

My DS is in a state reception with a class size of 20, smaller that the local private school. There are some very bright children in his class, and I struggle to see how people can claim that their child is doing better than all state children.

If you are dead set on private, then do it. You do rather sound like you want to be encouraged into it.

thanks, teacherwith2 kids.

I went to our village school until 11, and then to a well-known and notoriously academic public school until 16, when I went to another less socially smart and less academic mixed day school for sixth form (which nonetheless got me into my first choice university).

I realise this is going back a quarter of a century and not really relevant, but if I had to single out anything that my parents did right for my education, it would be my village school.

Firstly, I didn't have a long journey to and from school, so I had more time for after-school activities and later homework, and was never exhausted the way my sister and brother (who later went to private pre-prep 12 miles away) always were.

I made friends locally, who remained my friends when I went away to school. Don't underestimate the loneliness that boarders feel in the holidays otherwise.

My village friends were from very different backgrounds and although I didn't realise this at the time, it's had a hugely beneficial effect in later life as I find it so much easier to mix with people from all walks of life, which I don't think is true of most people I know from public school.

There was a downside, which was that I had big class sizes and not a massive amount of teacher support. My parents ended up spending quite a lot of money on coaching to make sure I got through my senior school's entrance exams. They still saved a fortune on my pre-prep education, and saved themselves a big organisational headache with school runs etc.

My two were at the local state school. We turned down a pre prep place for DS to try the state school with a view to moving him after 7+ but he was happy and doing well so we left him. We then thought that we would move him at 9 to do a couple of years at prep to prepare for 11+ but he was doing great so we didn't. We have no decided not to go down the private route for him at all as our state options are so good. I am sure that if we had taken the prep route from the start we would never have made the decisions we are making now and we have a saved a fortune in the process.

DD started state and moved to prep last term as she was very unhappy in her school and will stay there until she is 11 when we will reconsider whether to keep her private or move back to state.

DS2 will go state too as we think that it will work for him.

I am so pleased we took that decision because it seems insane not to take a good state option when it is in offer and we have found that in our case it can offer a really great primary education which is different but certainly not inferior to a prep one.

I just don't understand how people can say 'She is however already significantly ahead of her peers in the state sector'. How do you know this? Can you conduct little random tests on playdates? Are you going on the NC? I've no idea where my kids are in comparison to kids in other schools, private or state.

OP for what it's worth I'd go straight to pre-prep because it's very annoying for state schools to be used as cheap holding pens for a couple of years and very unsettling for the children left behind by their friends.

If you are definitely going to send dcs to prep,and finances aren't the overriding factor, there is a big argument for settling them into pre prep in the first place. They can make their friendship groups and benefit from the continuity.

Polly, point is that it's a first school - so only up to year 4 or so. All the children will move on at that point, so whether her child moves to private or the state middle school, there is a big 'shake up' of friendship groups anyway.

Techno, depends on whether the pre-prep is separate to the prep school, and even if technically part of the same school, what proportion of the prep entrants come from the pre-prep. It may be there is no advantage in terms of continuity if the pre-prep is not an automatic feed into the prep, or if,say, only 50% of the prep class come from the pre-prep...

Righto, I thought this thread had died a death so was really pleased to see it hadn't! Thanks to all who've replied so far. I've just managed to lose my first response (blardy phone!) in which I tried to address each of your posts individually, but I'm a bit short on time now so - apologies - I hope this more general response will suffice.

To start with, can I just say that my heart sank when I read the rather more snide-y, judge-y posts. For frip sake, I tried hard to avoid engendering the kind of ill-feeling you see so often on these Education threads. Entitled to say what you feel, of course (and god knows i opened myself up for this, albeit unwittingly) but FGS please don't be so presumptious and quick to judge me, my motivations, opinions, or circumstances. These sorts of bunfights so often start when someone has failed to read the OP (and subsequent thread) accurately or carefully enough.

For those who think I'd be using the state school as a "cheap holding pen" for a couple of years, do I really have to state the obvious point that my DC have an equal right to access state education? I fully expect that they would be educated/socialised there as opposed to just being "held in a pen" patiently awaiting their private school debut! At any rate, as teacherwith2kids has helpfully pointed out

it's

Very glad that ds's school doesn't charge £48,000 for pre-prep. That works out to be £16,000 per year! That is more than the cost of private secondary day schools near us.

Gosh, on reflection, think I probably overreacted and got a bit carried away there . Just wanted some straightforward/non-judgmental advice and really wanted to avoid reawakening the old private/state stand-off. Only been posting on MN a short while but been lurking for ages. Didn't realise how the more ascerbic posts might make feel.

Meant to say, KTk9 - helpful post, thanks. I do worry about regretting either course of action in the future.