Learning to read - he remembers the stories and doesn't read them

[PassTheTwiglets]

DS (4.5) is just starting to read. I show him a new book once and he can read most of it but a few days later when I show him the book again he remembers the story almost word for word and so just recites it parrot fashion and isn't actually reading the book. Does this matter?!

sunnyday it sounds as if your child's school is using books that require children to recognise words by sight

not sure as she's my first so nothing to compare? just uses ORT?

yes ORT are old look and say books

mrz can you explain some of your comments to me please? My DS would appear to be very similar to OP's child and sunnydays and probably many others, who start to "read" before they have learnt all the relevant phonic rules. My DS started being given reading books when he was at pre-school and we also borrowed many books from the library. He therefore encountered many words he was unable to decode properly as he had not learnt the relevant rules. Are you seriously saying that he should not have read any books with the word "the" in until he was able to decode it properly (I also have to confess I'm not sure how you decode "the" properly )

Also we used the pictures in the stories to help him with some words. Which surely is similar to him now trying to work out the meaning of a word he has not encountered before, by using the context of the sentence/paragraph that word is in. Have to say my DS once he had "read" a word a few times learnt it it, unlike some of his peers who I listen to reading when helping at school who constantly decode words as they read.

I understand that there are some children who struggle with reading and phonics is the method for them, but if other methods work for other children why is it wrong for them to use them? Is that not holding them back? My DS would have been really frustrated and probably not loved reading as much as he does if he had to wait until he had learnt the relevant phonics before he could read a book.

Firstly I wouldn't agree that sunnydays child is similar to the OPs description of her child. I don't know what your child does so can't say whether I would regard them the same as the OP's child or not.
The Ops child is naturally memorising whole books and isn't actually reading the book at all just reciting from memory.
Whereas sunnydays child has been given books that require her to learn some words by sight (not memorise a whole book )

I think all children should have lots of books to share and read with an adult from the earliest age but I don't think there is anything to be gained by asking a child to read a book (independently) if they can't read It would be a bit like me typing this in the Cyrillic alphabet and expecting you to read it without the relevant knowledge.

I understand that there are some children who struggle with reading and phonics is the method for them strange idea really as brain research shows good readers use phonics automatically whereas dyslexic readers don't

My DD (now 9) learned to read easily using ORT at school (and the few skills I'd taught her at home before school) so I hadn't worried about doing the same with DS. Is Phonics universally considered a better way of reading then, or is it just your personal preference, mrz? Can anyone name a Phonics reading scheme that we could be looking at at home?

Take a look at the free e books on MN learning (Phonics Bug) www.mumsnet.com/learning/ebooks or at Oxford Owl www.oxfordowl.co.uk/Library/Index/?AgeGroup=3&BookType=Phonics
songbirds/RWI/Floppy's phonics

All are available in paper copies too (other schemes include Dandelion readers, Big Cat Phonics, Rag Tag Rhymes, Rigby Star Phonics Jelly & Beab - Follyfoot farm etc)

Phonics provides useful strategies for children/adults to use when they encounter unknown words rather sometimes very haphazard strategies such as looking at pictures (which sometimes tell a different sub story to the text ). In addition good phonics instruction helps with writing.

I'm glad its not just my school with ancient Reception teachers, who encourage using picture clues, send home those ridiculous ORT books and are a few weeks away from having many children fail their phonics screening check. I bet the Year 1 teachers in your school love you!

Six years... Six years!!! Still many schools do not understand how to teach phonics.

www.mumsnet.com/learning/ebooks or at Oxford Owl www.oxfordowl.co.uk/Library/Index/?AgeGroup=3&BookType=Phonics

messy, the child in question hasn't started school yet. He's just sharing books with his mum. Why would you think that he won't get taught synthetic phonics at school? But even in reception class he will join in with the repetitive bits of shared stories, predict what's going to happen next, and perhaps look at the pictures too, before he can read independently, won't he? It's all part of the bigger picture, surely?

Do you consider that to be the same as a young child naturally memorising a whole book?

If the child memorises the book all it means is that he or she likes it, likes hearing it and enjoys it enough to remember it. It's up to the adult to distinguish the difference between memory and reading especially in longer books, unless the child has a photographic memory in which case the adult probably has a genuine problem.

Actually if phonics is taught properly it shouldn't. If the school hasn't invested in an appropriate reading scheme and are still sending home look and say books then it is really difficult.

I have lots of children coming into Year 1 'reading' who are memorising 'house, mum, dad, biff, chipper' etc. but don't know how to segment and blend. It's even worse when parents keep asking for their child to go up levels because the child can read this book easily, when they are memorising it and not reading at all.

As the OPs son hasn't started school yet it's not a problem. It would be a problem if a reception teacher encouraged this as a way to learn to read.

No. It's not the same, but it has value. Perhaps he's enjoying the book in his own way, especially if he has an older sibling he sees/ hears reading. I refer again to the fact that the little boy has not started school yet. He is four and a half, and he is modelling reading with his mum. Seems like he's getting ready to read to me. Nice and ripe for a bit of phonics learning I'd say. You do understand that I would not find memorising texts appropriate in the long term? I don't need to say that? That I would expect the child to go on to acquire a sound knowledge of phonics as part of his reading skills? Because it seems like you are inferring stuff from my posts that is just not there.

I agree messybedhead

mrz, thank you so much for those links, that's fantastic.

Is Letters and Sounds a phonics scheme? I know they do that at our school. I've just looked at the L&S website and I've already done up to Phase 4 with DS without knowing that's what I was doing. Perhaps I shouldn't have - is he going to be sitting in Reception, bored stiff, chanting out individual letter sounds when he can already read simple words like jump, food, car, frog, shop?! I've only done it because he's genuinely interested and takes delight in reading (I didn't bother with DD as she wasn't interested pre-school).

I should add that he does read an unkown word by saying the individual sounds first. For example he will say, for example, "f... r... o...g - frog!" or "sh... o....p - shop!" Is that what Phonics is? God, I should really know this already

If the child shows a serious and lasting propensity to memorise unusually passages of text and retains that ability into adulthood then the ability takes on a totally different significance. The ability to remember text is very useful at any pre-school age and beyond.

Letters & Sounds is the government published phonics programme many schools use because it is free. Personally I hate those stupid phases and think there are much more effective programmes available to schools.

He shouldn't be bored in reception (phonics is only a very small part of the day ) and his teacher should recognise he can blend longer words and provide appropriate challenge for him. Can he write the letters and break up words for spelling? as this is part of the daily phonics input.

Twiglets - if you are worried about boredom at school, you definitely should check once he has settled in , but any school worth its salt will have phonic groups for different stages. Even in my tiny school we have six different groups and children move between them as and when they have achieved everything their group covers.
Any good school will also teach a range of strategies for reading and promote a love of reading.

We don't have different groups (we have personalised learning) and we don't promote a range of strategies other than reading the words on the page but we do promote a love of reading.

Twiglets - your DS sounds sooo similar to my DD.

I have also been going through the phonics (without really realising we have got to phase 4 too ).

She is obsessed with all things to do with letters/words etc and sounds out stuff she sees ie as she gets dressed in the morning I hear her in her room sounding out S O CK etc etc. It does make my laugh though as she gets it wrong sometimes and yesterday was singing "Quack quack said the quocodile!!" (crocodile)

She will remember a book after reading once (twice at a push). But wants to read every day so struggle to find new books for her.

We have the songbirds books (which are fab) and use oxford owl etc (recommended by Mrz a few weeks ago).

mrz, yes he can break up the words to spell them but he can't really write. Well, not in a recognisable way - he understands that one sound is represented by a letter but he can't form the letters properly at all.

It sounds as if he is using phonics PassTheTwiglets so I would expect the school to teach him how to form the letters for writing the sounds and to provide books at his level for reading so he shouldn't be bored as he will be developing new skills.

Don't worry, DS knew the basic phonics when he went into Reception so has repeated these and now they are onto the harder ones. He was never bored, think being bored is more of an adult concept, well that's my opinion. 4 or 5 year olds will find excitement in repetition as the repetition will normally be in a different way, with different emphasis perhaps. Think DS just thought it was fun doing the phonics altogether in the class. And yes, although he knows the phonics they are covering, they have to do exercises like write sentences using the sounds and he is encouraged to write perhaps one or two long sentences, so that keeps him busy and interested .