a bit sad re parents evening and "levels"

[severnofnine]

a bit of an AIBU but I'm not brave enough to post there.

So DS1 I think is bright ( but so is everyone dc i guess). WE saw the teacher and he is " gaining levels as expected" and isnt it great that he achieving " what he should be" and "average".

I found the whole thing so sad. Lots of positives- always enthusiastic and works well independently. and lots of emphasis of - "isnt it great that he is gaining levels as expected".

He says school is "ok"- lots of spelling tests which he hates. he is quite quiet and very "well behaved" ( unlike his brothers), which is I think his teachers are finding him enthusiastic as he wouldnt dream of actually showing he was bored at school.

I'm not a pushy parent at all and am quite relaxed.
But even so I found the whole emphasis on average and gaining levels as we would hope etc kind of depressing.

and dont suggest private school as we really cant afford it :(

When it comes to questions like 'does he seem happy' and 'does he fit in socially' etc I don't think any teacher would duck the question and shove a graph in your face! I think the problem comes if you want to know if your child excels in any subject - that is the time you'll be blinded with levels.

DS2's teacher this year is firmly old school - she mentioned DS was on target (a major acehivement for him btw) but the rest of the conversation was all about how imaginative, how creative, how knowledgeable, how polite he was and how he is getting on with his peers. It does depend on the teacher - and IME the most level-orientated teachers seems to be the younger ones. But clearly that isn't always the case.

I was told my child was 'absolutely average' and was made feel a 'pushy paranoid' parent and was gobsmacked by this, because I went in to discuss the fact that he was falling behind while being bored at the same time.

Well, when I had him assessed, the ed psych told he is 97% percentile in verbal reasoning, etc etc, of extra superior intelligence and by no means average. He is uneven, and has problematic areas, but not average.

I agree with the above - no one is average, everyone is special in some way. If a teacher can't see it, it's fine, because I don't expect individual attention to my DS, but I wouldn't think she can pass such a judgement?! And, what's worse, not expect anything from the child

And that ..... can't call her teacher, of my DS, even then bullied my son by telling him 'Ah, so, you're bored in school?' and tearing pages out of his notebook after which he refused to go to school. ??? Used to be an outstanding school...

I was told my child was well on the way to attaining the expected level for his age

so actually he is below average but very subtly put!

severnofnine:

I think what you're getting at with your post is that the things you were interested - how your child behaves in class, is he happy, is he trying, etc... weren't discussed.

It's only a suggestions - but perhaps next parent/ teacher meeting you should make a little note of the three most important issues you'd like to discuss. Then make a point of raising them.

Mr. XXX I'm very pleased to hear DC is a 3b, but what actually concerns me is whether DC is attentive in class? of whatever issue interests you.

On a general note - the levels discussion group (and we seem to be the same culprits so apologies) is about the fact we're getting tons of your DD is enjoying movement in dance and singing and very little your DC can add/ subtract and is performing below/ at or above national curriculum level expectations for this stage in his/her education.

I think the common denominator is that we would like to think the teacher knows our child - knows their strengths & weaknesses and can advise of what we should be working on at home to support learning. What depresses me is that doesn't seem to be happening in so many places, including our school.

HTH

olguis

All I can say is - how awful.

I hope things are better now.

Where do you get hold of an ed psych?

I teach secondary but we've been told to focus on Levels at Parents' Evening as whether the children are lovely or not is irrelevant to their learning .

The teacher probably had loads more to say!

PastSellByDate,
Thank you, things are better now; that teacher only taught him fow a couple of months before summer kicked in. She actually apologised to him (out of her own accord) when she saw what she had done. I think I am now more angry about it than back then, because she did make me feel completely inadequate, and I was actually thinking what if I have unrealistic expectations of my DS?

MrsHeffley,
I had to pay out of my own pocket for a test - not exactly with an EdPsych, but at a dyslexia centre.

I know what you mean OP. It's a sort of empty news syndrome.

We get lots of 'fine'. It's non information like average. Average is only news if you know where they started, where they are headed, if this is progress for them, if this is no progress or if this is a back step.

I find it frustrating.

I understand what you mean OP, if you were expecting different.

Average is a good thing of course (although a horrible word as someone above states) but "meeting the expected level" is something different and I would expect an average child to be at or slightly above the expected level.

If we're going to talk bell curves... Surely the expected NC level is set at the bottom curve (2SD) of the average bell curve? Average would be the children at the very top of the bell curve, not including the bell curve with 2 standard deviations then 95% of children will be average, that's a huge range. Somewhere in the middle of a bell curve may not actually be average.

Do I get a prize for the number of times someone can say bell curve in one post?

Thing I always wonder is if you want your child to have more knowledge than an average child how do you think the child will get that extra knowledge ?

School will teach to a class of say 30 a topic - lets say number bonds to 10 - all children who understand this will be ticked off - they will all be average, one or two wont understand they will be below average, one or two will have understood it long before the topic was raised at school they will be above average and may have been stretched by a good teacher to spend their time learning say number bonds to 20.

If you want your child to be above average you therefore have to teach them the average cirriculum, before they study it at school, so that when the topic comes up at school your child knows it already.

mmm RosemaryandThyme. Interesting. So a child likely to be labelled above average in teacher's eyes through luck of home support. I guess sometimes a label of average/ whatever is just a judgement made by a particular person at a particular time. It does not mean it is so. Average is a coverall term but children are complex and will have all sorts of interesting quirks that make them the wonderful unique beings they are.

Was going to disagree with you rosemary but think I know where you coming from. I did lots of bits with my kids before school (mine did not go until six though) and are above average however I would not know how they would be without input. Interesting to research this.

Rosemary I can believe that for early primary age with reading and writing, basic maths and science but how about more advanced science, maths, languages where the parents son't know the subject?

Advanced youngsters and teenagers can learn independently from books, videos, TV, Internet, clubs, friends, (how do teenagers learn to hack into computer systems? Their parents certainly don't teach them. Well, I should hope not, anyway.)

My view (yes I'll be flamed!) is that if a child knows, and shows the teacher they know, something before it is taught then the teacher sees them as bright - the teacher can't help but then speak to them as though they were a little bit brighter than the average child - there has been research on this where teachers have been told a group of children were brighter than others (when in reality the group had lower NC levels) within weeks all of the children that teachers thought were bright out performed the prevously "brightest" children in the class - I'll see if I can find a reference if anyone is interested.
As it is soooo not the done thing in British society to be seen to be educating your children deliberately at home, parents collude in this by saying gosh can he really do that - he doesn't practice much at home - thus building the illusion that a child has inherently gained knowledge and has an inner pre-set level of high intelligence.
It snow-balls, school stretch child thinking he is bright, parent stretches child further, school stretch, child finds confidence ans ease in class and stretches themself further, slowly slowly the parents can step back and child flies.

Whether or not it's the done thing is debatable. There are a lot of people who claim to be no good at teaching, too busy or who pay for tutors or schools. There seem to be far fewer who speak openly about educating their children at home, perhaps that's because far fewer actually do it, or perhaps it's because there are many who do it but few who'll admit to it. (I rather doubt the latter. I can't imagine what the benefit of tutoring your child at home and pretending that you don't could be.) Sounds stupid to me.

Rosemary you are so spot on. This makes so much sense, including the bit about it not being seen as the correct thing to be teaching at home. As a maths teacher of older ks2 children, they are getting to the stage where natural ability and "taught" ability really starts to tell and I often have the difficult job of informing the parent that actually their dc is not as bright as maybe previously thought. Sorry a bit off original post.

toobusy,

Would you say that dividing fractions was a fair example of KS2 maths? And that many adults, let alone children, don't know how to do it? If a six or seven year old came up to you happily dividing fractions all day long, where would you suppose that she learned how to do that? And are you suggesting that the typical British society parental response is to feign ignorance of how the child learned to do it, when you know perfectly well how she learned -- you taught her?!

If you are saying that as a teacher this is what you've experienced then I'm a little bit depressed! It strikes me as a bit bonkers and I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that.

I do think there are many parents who teach their children at home and are not comfortable to let their childrens' school know this.
I think this because it is very un-British to boast or to be seen to boast.
Parents of children who have been identified as gifted really do struggle with openly discussing it with both school and other parents.
Often parents are inadvertently educating their children simply by giving good access to resources, family trips and lots of conversation.
However there are some who deliberatley take this into teaching, perhaps at first to fill any gaps, help their childs confidence, because they doubt the school, or because their child is pulling for more information.
It then becomes a small step to Bond Assessment books....
Knowing how socially unacceptable it would be to reveal being taught at home many a parent will feign ignorance - after all we're British !

Rosemary I 100% agree with your second post even though I disagree with your first! I think early primary children can seem bright when coming from a background of parental interventions but actually their natural ability isn't necessarily high. It's when the curriculum gets tricky and parents don't maybe understand it so well that this might start to show. Teachers do respond more positively to the early advanced kids in my limited experience.

I have often wondered whether if I hothoused my DS a bit more he would get a bit more credit from teachers but as it is he is doing well and I do the bare minimum (except worry) at home so I could have done more. I certainly never tried to do anything with him before school like recognise letters, write his name, numbers etc. I was very laid back about reading bands etc until the middle of year 1 when I started to listen to playground chat, look on here and get caught up in it all. However he is doing well now towards the end of year 2 and teacher always seems surprised when she mentions his achievements.

I don't want my DCs to be labelled as the bright one in class from an early age and have to live up to that label tbh, I have direct experience of that and it isn't nice. As toobusytothink says I would rather my DCs were the natural ability kids that were average early on with natural ability emerging at year 5 than be advanced at year 1 but struggling at year 5 as the assumption was that they were the bright one. Of course they may be advanced all the way through from natural ability but if it is natural it will show in the end!

Learnandsay no sorry. Not saying that that is my experience. Yes, agree that would be sad if the parent denied it to the teacher. What I was trying to get at was I agree with kids appearing to be brighter than they are merely because parents have taught them. My other comment should probably be read separately and just saying that in mummy circles no one really admits to teaching their dc at home, even if they do it.

I can't imagine what the benefit of tutoring your child at home and pretending that you don't could be.

1. School Teacher maintains position as gaurdian of academic knowledge.
2. School Teacher is reassured that it is their excellent teaching that has resulted in such good student performance.
3. Parent and teacher have good relationship - we all know where we stand.

Rosemary, that's sad. I can't really understand the inevitability of boasting, if the child can divide fractions at six she can divide fractions. There's no need to go around stopping people in the street and telling them that she can do it. Funnily enough there was recently a thread about competitive parents showing their children's homework in a pseudo accidental manner, just to reinforce how superior their children are. So maybe what's the done thing and what isn't depends on what part of society one is from. But the saddest thing for me in your post is that the school and parents should partner to educate the child, not compete.

Why on earth would I be pleased that the school was glad that my daughter did not know how to divide fractions?

That's just messed up on all levels!!!