Does anyone else get fed up with the phonics method?

[ProbablyJustGas]

Maybe I'm a bit more stuck in my ways than I thought, but does anyone else get frustrated trying to stick to the synthetic phonics system when working with young DCs reading and spelling?

My stepdaughter's name ends in a y ("ee" sound). She knows how to pronounce her name, and how to write her name, but insists her name is spelled with a "yeh". This is because she's been taught that the letter "y" is a "yeh". I think that's misleading - the letter is "y", and the sounds it makes depends on where it is. "Yeh" at the beginning, yes, but "ee" when it follows a consonant at the end of a word ("carry"). If she's spelling her name out loud with sounds, she should say "ee" and write "y".

She has trouble writing my name, which starts with a "g" like in "general". In her mind, "g" is a "geh" and only a "geh" even though we tell her all the time that it has two sounds. She may not come across too many books with words like "gentle" or "scary" right now, but she will someday.

I didn't grow up with satpin and jolly phonics, so the method is just maddening to me sometimes. I don't want to undermine her teachers - DSD is finally making some progress reading with phonics when she can be arsed with decoding - but it feels like she's missing some important facts about the alphabet sometimes.

It's curmudgeon week on my end...

Feeling very happy with phonics today actually - today's episode of Alphablocks made me laugh. And they do seem to be able to take off and work out the "CVC" words by themselves once they've learnt it, which is nice. I do remember coming home with lists of words to memorise when I was little, and I didn't mind it at all, but I knew some kids found it really tough, and I'm glad it's a slightly different approach now.

With mrz on this, but think that perhaps there needs to be more parent-coaching to help out. I am horrified how often I hear parents saying exactly "cuh - ah - duh" and then complaining that their children just can't "get" blending, not seeming to realise that the child is struggling with why a picture of a cat would have a word that apparently is said "Keradder" underneath it!

I agree, with such aural based topic, parents need some coaching on how things should sound. The books don't tell you if you are saying it wrongly!

Surely in our iPhone society, there must be an app and a DVD for it already!

kipperandtiger,

You can listen to the 'correct' pronunciation of phonemes here:

jollylearning.co.uk/2010/10/29/hear-the-letter-sounds/

and here:

www.phonicsinternational.com/new_hear_sounds.html

and here:

www.focusonphonics.co.uk/sound.htm

and doubtless on quite a number of other phonics websites!

letter "a" doesn't always make "ah"

to me, "ah" is the sound that you make at the dentist, and it's "a" in southern grass etc.
"a" pronounced "a" is in cat and northern grass

it's a bit easier if you're in the north, because it doesn't vary as much as in the south.

and if it changes when it follows ~"qu" , then it can be classed as changing when it precedes "l" when it becomes "or"
but I would have assumed that those particular diphthongs have their own phonic sound.

Thank you MaizieD - I didn't know those links! I asked our school and other parents and they all used books. Nicklehasababy- thanks, it took me ages to figure out how to pronounce a, definitely. But as least I didn't say "ahhh" (the sound at the dentist), lol. We got there eventually!

Kipperand tiger,

If you have a look on the Phonics International site you will find an Alphabetic Code chart with the 'sounds' (spelled the way that they are first taught to children) down the LH side with the common ways they are represented going across the page. It clarifies all sorts of questions about the different ways sounds are represented.

Anyone teaching phonics takes account of the local accent. If I were working with Southern pupils I would say that 'a' represents the dentists 'ah' because it does, for them (and me). As I am working with Northern children I don't, because it doesn't for them...

Thanks MaizieD!

Hmm (watching the clip).....the "a" doesn't sound like the "ahhh" when you go to the dentist/doctor. Unless you actually say a flat "a" to the dentist.....it's possible to do it but I've never heard it. Not even with Northern patients! It seems to be somewhere between the "a" in "grass" (said with a southern England accent) and the "a" in "flat".

Thank goodness there is no phonics in GCSE English (for now!).

i say arrrrr (without rolling the r - like in calm, or are, or barm) at the dentist.

ooh, i know!
the "a" sound is like when jeremy clarkson says the Ford "Ka"

Oh, I have to go watch Clarkson to learn phonics? Oh no.....plumbing new depths here

Are you in the north kipper? because I don't say it that way either ... think grahss and bahth ... where we use the flat a up here.

No, am in the south, as in Home Counties and London. I am totally guided/swayed by what I am told from books/videos and the phonics international website. It sounds to me like something in between "ar" (as in "far") and "air". This is why I have always had difficulty with phonics. The same "a" is used for "cat" and "grass" (which obviously sound different). So which is the standard and which is the exception? (I feel like I'm splitting hairs but I simply don't want to teach my offspring the wrong thing.) And I feel bad - but grateful - having to ask on MN......

In the north the a represents the same sound in cat as in grass so we don't have a problem

The same "a" is used for "cat" and "grass" (which obviously sound different). So which is the standard and which is the exception?

Please don't think of phonics as elocution lessons! There are no 'standard' ways of pronouncing letters! . Phonics starts with a 'sound' and then teaches how it is represented by a letter of group of letters.

Obviously any examples of the spoken sounds are going to be in the accent of the person speaking them and, the 'sounds' are only an approximation of how they are heard in the spoken word because the precise 'sound' of a discrete phoneme is affected by the phonemes which precede and follow them (co-articulation). Minor differences, such as a slight rolling of the /r/ in the /ar/ phoneme aren't going to make a huge difference to a child's ability to decode and blend. The thing that makes decoding and blending difficult for a child is adding an extra phoneme (/cuh/ instead of /c/). The spoken examples are meant to illustrate how the phonemes should be pronounced crisply without adding the /uh/. They are not a definitive guide to the correspondences between sounds and letters because these can vary with accent.

The Phonics International chart does, I think, try to point out how some graphemes may be pronounced differently in different accents (She certainly points out that the 'a' in grass that we are discussing is said differently in different accents). But, with the best will in the world, it cannot cover all variations. So just teach to your accent (or your child's accent if, like me, you have a different accent from your children). If the 'a' in 'grass' sounds like an /arrr/ (rolled 'r') to you, then that is what it corresponds to. it is no more 'correct' or 'incorrect' than short /a/ or /ah/.

I hope that this is understandable; I find it an easy concept because I've been in the phonics game for quite a while, but it isn't always easy to put into words succinctly.

BTW. It is really important to teach that 'l' and 'r' have the approximate sounds of /ul/ and /ur/ (as little emphasis on the vowel as possible). Try blending /luh/ /e/ /g/ and then /ul//e//g/ (and /ruh/ /e/ /d/ and /ur/ /e/ /d/) and I think you will see what I mean.

exactly - the teaching will vary by region and how you normally pronounce that letter sound.

Miggsie - how old is your DD? Is she old enough to need to read long scientific words?

For some kids, the disadvantages of only being able to read whole words doesn't impact on them until well into secondary.

( ie when lots of scientific words start with the same Latin prefix, and only differ in the 4th or 5ft syllable)

Other kids who read well by sight in reception turn out to be terrible spellers by Y6, again when the number of words they need to be able to spell correctly is huge.

But not all. Some do perfectly well at reading long Latin words and spelling.

ooh i know how you feel! DD showed me how to play what i thought was hang man. Its not. Its smiley face. The same rules as hang man. So i said "A" DD said "Is that A as in the letter A or a as in AY?" Que confused mum! I too find phonics confusing at times however we played scrabble (DD came out with amazing words such as "fitsuengs") DD managed to spell out the word "shit" I asked how she spelt that word out so easily she said "easy! SH - IT. shit." Phonics can be funny.

school are definitely building it up as something very important....

FSG -is this saying something about the instructional programme used by your school - if they are so insecure then maybe they are one of the schools that failed to teach significant numbers of children to read ...

if they are secure then why on earth are they harping on about the check?

Allchildren exactly... We shall see how it goes.

Meanwhile was :( to hear my sight reader DS say at the weekend "I can't read that word, we haven't learnt that sound in phonics yet...". Once upon a time he would have just had a go

"I can't read that word, we haven't learnt that sound in phonics yet...".
could you not have just taught him the unknown sound?

I made him break it down into its parts, and he did read it. But, like the OP, I don't feel I understand phonics enough to start teaching him the "proper" sounds. I mean, I genuinely don't know why it's "through" but "trough" (this wasn't the word, just an example of why I am about phonics).