would love some tips on how to help an argumentative child

[laptopdancer]

Ds will not accept he is wrong and I find this really difficult when doing his home work/study. This morning we have had a disagreement about the 8 times tables .
How do you help a child who wont be told?

I'm frankly impressed that he's doing his times tables homework before 8 o'clock on a Saturday morning!

As you were!

Don't tell him. get him to work it out - ie ask him questions rather then telling him answers.

No point in arguing over the 8 times tables. It's very easy to get him to work it out from first principles. (ie drawing x number of 8 dots and counting them for example)

He does it by adding (he is an in the head kid) and after I mentioned that 4 8's is not 30 but 32, he wasnt impressed

clam I have one of those early riser kids (no lie in for me, its tragic).

Well, 4 x 8 is easily proved. However, that's not your problem - it's the argumentative bit that's the issue, and I'm afraid I don't have much to offer as help.
If it's about him not wanting to lose face, then I suppose you could just say "is it? Are you sure? Shall we take a look again? Show me how you got to that." And then show him your way and leave it. It will go in, he just might not admit it!
If, however, he's just being bloody-minded and determined to say something that's nonsense, "just because," then I'd ignore it I think and leave him with it to get it wrong in his test . Just say, "Really? OK."

How old is he? Ds is 7 and going through exactly the same thing with him at the moment.

I don't push it, if he won't listen, just shrug shoulders & quietly change the subject. Choose your battles & all that. Locking horns is just such a terrible idea with some kids. He will figure out the truth later & sounds like he's young enough that he doesn't need to get it right.

He is 7 too haziedoll

I just worry he will never learn anything if he is so argumentative

I have the same thing going on here with my ds7! At school he goes very quiet and looks at the teacher blankly when they are trying to help him, maybe because he is fighting with his inner self to keep in control, as at home he will argue like mad that he is right!

Oh my DS1 is also like this and also 7!

I just say well that's see what Miss X says about who is right and change the subject. I walk off and when I return he quite often has rechecked it and changed his answer.

My DS (6) is like this at school according to his teacher, he isn't so much at home but then I probably would just prove he was wrong and then ignore the meltdown so it's not such a problem for me as teacher would have with 30 of them doing it I suppose.

I have no idea how to help but it's nice to know I don't have the only stubborn DC!!

DS (8) is a lot like that. He's also a 'I do my working out in my head' kind of kid. I don't think it's stubbornness so much as a 'can't bear to be wrong' deal. Because he's usually right about everything - the swine - except when he suddenly isn't. And then he's Full Of Rage. And tears.

We deal by talking about investigation and the role of error in science and the value of getting things wrong and the impossibility of being right all the time and all the things I get wrong etc etc. It's still tricky.

Do you find that they make stuff up to? Not complete lies but they misinterpret something they have heard, embellish it and reel it off as a fact. Ds was talking complete nonsense the other day about planets but we were finding it hard to reason with him. He is adamant that he knows more about certain subjects than I do, sometimes he is right.

I have started asking him to provide me with evidence of his theory. Not so easy to do that when it comes to Maths.

DS totally does that! And just cold makes stuff up sometimes, because he can't bear not knowing things almost as much as he can't bear getting them wrong!

Hi laptopdancer:

I agree with Haziedoll, there does seem to be something that goes on at 7/8 in Y2. I kind of think it has to do with the work getting a bit harder and those gaps in knowledge showing.

Solutions to tempers:

1. stop everything. When DD2 (now age 7 too) shouts at me during homework time, I just pack up everything and calmly tell her, I'm really tired, I've worked all day and I don't need to be helping you do your homework and be shouted out. I'm not being funny, but your grandmother never (and I mean never) had to do this much with me. I had to do my homework myself. So your options are do it by yourself or let me take a break and will come back to this in 15 minutes, if you're feeling like listening to me and working with me.

2. anger at not understanding: DD2 can either shout or cry depending on day, how's she feeling, tiredness, etc... Basically if it is getting tricky try and make it visual (for maths) or find a memory trick (for spelling) or try to get them to be o.k. with tricky words (I play dumb and look them up on internet dictionaries with DDs, but then also look up history of word. So for example, translucent: we type in a google define translucent and then see what we get - in this case dictionary.reference.com/browse/translucent. So the interesting bit is that this word has a latin (so Roman) root (transluscens) - and was first recorded around 1590/ 1600 (so toward the end of Queen Elizabeth 1st reign) - so why might translucent have been needed then do you think? And have a bit of a discussion about the word. I think both girls really enjoy that English borrows words from all over, it makes sense, we've had Roman invasions, Saxon invasions, Viking raids/ invasions, Norman invasions and then colonisation bringing Britain into contact with far flung places. It's a great link into history.

3. recognise the signs; This has taken me a long time to get the hang of - but start to recognise the signs of stress before the volcanic eruptions. DD1 starts hoding her forehead and DD2 gets a bit whiny. In both cases I know that something isn't making sense. 2 tricks are to start again, but explain it in a slightly different way. To offer to go through the first problem/ paragraph/ question with them - just to help get started. I find both approaches diffuse the situation.

Hang in there.

Hazie no not DS but my DH does this all the time!! Drives me potty!!

I have two grown up children who have always been expert arguers. They are both happy, well-adjusted and earning a fortune...
We used to be up until all hours arguing over Maths homework. They are both extremely clever and 'arguing' is a way of sorting things out in one's brain - much better than well-mannered, passive misunderstanding, which is what happens at school for many children.
When he 'won't be told', he is working something out. Argue back! but don't get nasty or personal.
When you've had enough just say so, calmly, and be ready to argue again tomorrow.

Bribery. (Works almost every time)

It's a motivation problem, isn't it? You want him to do it your way and he wants to do it his way. So you have to persuade him that he really wants to do it your way.

What's in it for him?

Whenever DS1 disagrees with me on something where I can prove he is wrong I offer to bet him a pound that I am right.

He usually backsdown.

ditto everything RW said :) - mines not yet adult, but she too started this at about 6 & was horrendous with it so much so that on speaking with the School we agreed to leave out the homework for a few years as she wasn't really gaining anything from it - it still carries on at 9 now that we've started homework again, but she has been this way with ANYTHING I try & teach her

so where as I DO feel for you OP, as initially it can be VERY frustrating & stressful if you let it, it IS there way of working things out & I too have learned that

a,. it doesn't affect their learning at all

b. it really is just the way they process the info, so just roll with it & learn not to get so wound up by it - the fault is with YOU, not your DS

b. it actually could well be a positive thing, as IME, it tends to be a sign of a very bright DC

Personally I REALLY disagree with the bribery/whats in it for him angle, thats just setting him up to always expect payment for something that he should just do willingly - we've found penalties work far better -

DD gets pocket money, TV computer time etc & to keep the full amount she has certain things she is expected to do during the course of the week, chores & homework being up there - she doesn't do, she gets docked - IMHO its setting a far healthier grounding for attitude to life in general

OK, rockinhippy, I see your point. But wouldn't one need to bed this system in over a longer period of time? If you've already got a stroppy child the last thing you want to do is deprive them of something because then you've got a stroppy child with a sense of added injustice. (I can see how in a longer term it's a reasonable approach.)

Ds1 just seems generally argumentative at the moment. Yesterday dh and I were discussing the "supportive friends" for ds2's thanksgiving blessing (like Godparents) and ds1 said that he wanted dh's parents to be chosen, we explained that we didn't want Grandparents and our reasons why. Ds1 then got into a strop he said he is part of the family and should have been involved in the decision process and presented the case as to why dh's parents should be chosen. In the end we got quite cross with him because he had been eavesdropping we weren't actually discussing it with him and told him that he can choose his Godparents when he has his own children.

It just seems that he wants to be involved in every decision that is made.

What a reassuring thread

I have an 8 yr old dd1, and 7 was The Worst for arguing and homework. Its definitely easier now, though we have moments of regression (I say 'we' on purpose )

OK, rockinhippy, I see your point. But wouldn't one need to bed this system in over a longer period of time? If you've already got a stroppy child the last thing you want to do is deprive them of something because then you've got a stroppy child with a sense of added injustice. (I can see how in a longer term it's a reasonable approach

Yes you are right to a point learnandsay but IME by that age they have enough understanding of the concept, that a little chat & warning that they will lose X Y Z if they don't toe the line & fly off again

Also I've seen it happen where the incentives actually become a bit of a noose around the parents neck so to speak - bright DCs come to EXPECT an incentive for every new task & will kick off if its not offered - & with them being at an age where starting taking on chores etc should be the norm, IMHO its a bit of a dangerous road to go down.

Not against incentives all together though, DD knows if she does well at School, or should I say always TRIES her hardest, she gets to choose a gift after parents evening - so I think for long term goals they can be a good - as in life, you work hard & do your best for a long stint, you gain promotion, degrees or whatever, but I just don't see it as a good plan for smaller more everyday things, IMHO it sets up unrealistic expctations