Reasonable distance to travel...

[Pyrrah]

I've been looking at all the primary schools in my local area and had a couple of questions...

I live in London, but in what is rather a penninsula and very close to the river which means I don't have a 360 degree choice of schools

Going across of the river would mean applying out of the borough and with a very difficult journey. We don't have a car, there are no bridges nearby and public transport would be hard even if we were to be allocated a place, although I will have a look at them.

So, there are a grand total of 6 primary schools within 2km of us. Of these, 3 are faith schools (2 RC, 1 CofE) and heavily oversubscribed - we are also staunch atheists. We're quite happy for DD to go to a faith school, but we aren't going to start going to church in order to try for a place - plus DH is technically Jewish.

Of the remaining 3, we are outside the 'furthest offered on distance' by a considerable margin for all but one - where we are just inside.

Our nearest school is one of the CofE faith schools - it's on the same street we live in, 350m away and I can pretty much see the front gate from our flat.

The one we are just inside the 'furthest offered on distance' is my 'over my dead body' option.

I spoke to one of the schools this morning who told me that they've already got 32 siblings who will be applying in September so over 50% of places gone already, and looking at the LA lists, around 50% sibling applications appears to be the norm at all the schools.

I've asked around people I know in the immediate area who have young children but they all seem to be religious and therefore going to the faith schools.

If we were to be offered nothing in the area, how long a journey do LA's consider to be acceptable - and is it measured using public transport/ timings from TFL?

What happens if there is no place in the borough available? Do they add a new class or increase a class over 30 pupils? Do they try and find you a place in another borough?

If distances are measured 'as the crow flies', does that count even if you live in another borough?

Grateful for any insights!

Do you mean entry for September 2013? Aren't you applying late otherwise? Which school is your catchment area school? Our local education authority offers a fifty page parent's guide listing all of these kinds of replies and questions. It's on their webpage. I'd guess yours might do so too. We also went to several primaries and the head teachers went to great lengths to explain the application process to us, even if we weren't going to go to their school.

The recommended behaviour is to list your catchment school even if you don't want to send your child there, because otherwise the LEA may/will have to allocate a school for you which you might like even less and could be anywhere within their authority. It'll be the nearest school with an available place and might be anywhere.

Yes, this is for 2013 entry.

By catchment school, do you mean the nearest non-faith school?

Our nearest school (and my top choice) has 650 metres as it's 'furthest offered on distance'.

The one I really dislike is further away but has 1200 metres 'furthest offered on distance' which we are within.

Both have over 50% sibling places.

So, the LEA could allocate a school at the furthest point of the borough that could take several hours to get to?

I will go and see what I can track down on their system.

My understanding is you won't get travel even for a school miles away if it isn't your nearest school with a place. Therefore if the is a place at your over my dead body school but you don't take it, they don't need to offer transport.

I may be wrong though and someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong.

Even the school I don't like is oversubscribed, so even if I don't list it, there wouldn't be a vacancy.

You have to accept a place at your nearest school - even if it wasn't on your original list, in order for the LEA to provide or pay for transport. From the LEA pov if you decide not to accept a place at a nearer school if there is a vacancy why should they pay for your choice. You can refuse a VA place though even if less than 2 miles away IIRC and still be eligible for transport costs.

There's no reason why your catchment area school can't be a faith school. The catchment area school has a specific meaning and it's the LEA school that's already allocated to primary school children from your address. It's quite likely to be the nearest school to you as the crow files. But there's no guarantee. I have heard of schools where the catchment area ran down the middle of the road, so the parents opposite were right outside the school, literally, but were still not in the catchment area. So you really need to look up which school has been allocated to you as a catchment area school.

It sounds like you'd get in at either the CofE school (or is church attendance a requirement?) or your top choice though - how far are you from top choice?

London doesn't havefixed catchment areas though - children are admitted based on how close they are to a school (after siblings etc).

Just to add... Not all faith schools are super religious. In fact where I used to live the local CofE school was less religious than the community school which strongly pushed Christianity as the head was Christian. (I'm an atheist and naively thought that a community school meant religion only during RE)

The CofE school requires church attendance. The staff at the nursery my daughter attends provide after-school care for 4 of the local schools and they've said that in there experience both the RC and the CofE are very strict and can more than fill their places before having to look at distances.

My top choice school is 940 metres away.

I rang the schools advisory person in the borough who was lovely and looked through everything with me, checked distances and criteria, confirmed about the faith schools being strict and agreed that my situation is not wonderful and I could well be left without a place at anything within the 2km mark.

Her advice was basically to list in order of preference and get on the waiting lists and hope for the best. If nothing else there is at least a mobile population here!

Some faith schools will also prioritise people of other faiths too if there is no nearby appropriate school (e.g. If your dh went to synagoue but no nearby Jewish schools), but it sounds as if you don't want to be Jewish either. Do the faith schools say in their admission criteria that they prioritise church attenders over distance? Not all do. Even if you go to a church school you still have the right to remove your child from christian worship, and esp as the ancestory is Jewish it won't be unheard of, at my school none of the Jewish girls attended assembly.

Sorry x posted. ?move, there's still time!

My husband isn't practicing - and is an atheist as well - it was more a case of it being an extra barrier to our 'discovering religion' in order to get a primary school place!

We're quite happy for DD to attend assemblies, sing hymns etc, I'd be furious about evangelising, telling children that they or their loved ones will go to hell if they don't believe or anything that smacks of creationism or intelligent design but the nativity play/carols/bible stories type thing is fine.

The CofE's admissions criteria is as follows:

^1. Children in Public care (looked after children) (see note a)

1. Children with an exceptional and professionally supported medical or social need for a place at this school. This must be supported by written evidence at the time of application e.g. from a specialist health professional, social worker or other care professional. The evidence must set out the reasons why this school is the most suitable school and the difficulties that would be caused if the child has to attend another school. (see note b)

1. Children whose parent/carer attends regular worship either weekly, or at least twice per month in the past year, at one of the three contributory parish churches. (A signed supporting statement is required from the parish priest; please ask the school for a supplementary form.)

1. Children whose parent/carer attend regular worship either weekly or at least twice per month in the past year at a church or chapel of a Christian denomination affiliated to Churches Together in England who live within the parish. (A signed supporting statement is required from the minister; please ask the school for a supplementary form.)

1. Children who at the point of admission have brothers, sisters, step/half brothers/sisters or foster/adopted brothers/sisters already in the school.

1. At the time of application children who are attending the Nursery class and are applying for a reception place.

1. Any remaining places will be allocated in order of nearness of home by straight line to the school entrance gate in Beatson Walk.

Each of the criteria is given points as follows:

Criteria 1 (refer to note a) = 20 points
Criteria 2 (refer to note b) = 8 points
Criteria 3 = 4 points
Criteria 4 = 3 points
Criteria 5 = 2 points
Criteria 6 = 2 points^

So we would be very much lowest of the low in terms of admissions and it's an oversubscribed school...

Moving definitely not an option!

es you might want to move - that's a pretty crap situation to be in.... The furthest offered distance presumably is based on 2011 admissions and will be different each year depending on where its applicants live, so you never know there might be a dearth of 3 year olds where you live!

BTW 2 miles is, not km, is the point at which you'll get help with transport. It is possible for you to be allocated a place which would take 2 hours to get to. Hoever thsi would actually be quite good as you coudl possibly use this as a basis on which to appeal to a nearer school. No LEA would think this a reasonable journey. Having said that......

If you don't get allocated a place at any of your preferred schools you will be offered a place at the nearest school with places available. If that school is more than 2 miles away by the shortest walking route you are entitled to free transport. However, if you do not apply to your nearest school you will not be entitled to free transport no matter how far away the allocated school is.

In terms of reasonable distance to travel, anything up to an hour each way is regarded as reasonable.

Don't write off the church schools without looking at them. You may find they are less religious than the local state schools. Some state schools are very strongly Christian, some faith schools are not very religious at all.

OP hasn't written off church schools; she has said they use church attendance as their main selection criteria. OP has said that her first choice would be her nearest school, but she wouldn't like one a bit further away. If she doesn't put that one, and it is full with children whose parents have put it, would she be entitled to travel expenses to a further away school?

Apparently because it's a different borough on the other side of the river it's reasonable of me to not apply for any schools there. I will check them out just in case!

At least it won't be a shock if I'm not allocated anything and I will definitely watch what happens this year with waiting lists etc.

I'm booking appointments to look round loads of schools so will add to questions a request for information on waiting lists and numbers of children leaving each year.

At least it won't be a shock if we don't get a place allocated next year...

Does anyone know if 'furthest distance offered a place' applies to those offered a place initially or includes subsequent children from waiting lists?

I'm thinking I might have to see if I can find 'an exceptional and professionally supported medical or social need for a place'

Before you completely rule out moving, and while you are on a missson, have a look at secondary schools. Before you laugh, it comes round sooner than you think and if you are finding it hard to find primary school places, secondary might be tricky too.

CecilyP - I was reacting to a para in one of her posts where she said she would be furious about evangelising, but I had also misread the OP which didn't help. Regarding your question on travel, no she doesn't have to put down the 6 nearest schools as her choices in order to qualify for free transport.

Pyrrah - "furthest distance offered a place" applies to those offered a place initially. To pick up some other questions from your OP:

• If there is no place in the borough available they have to find a place for your child somehow. It is up to the LA whether they do that by looking in other boroughs or by getting some of the schools to create bulge classes. The one thing they cannot do is increase the class size over 30 pupils.

• If the admission criteria for a school say distance is measured as the crow flies that applies regardless of where you live. What matters, however, is the school's admission criteria. If you apply for a school in another borough the fact that your LA measures as the crow flies is irrelevant. What matters is how they measure distance. Note, however, that for the purposes of free school transport what matters is the shortest walking distance.

Not laughing I can assure you!

My other thread in this section was looking at 7+ entry to selective indies. Secondary schools round here are particularly woeful so we have aways known that we are looking at the private sector.

DD is very bright and if she seems to have the aptitude and the personality for it we hope to sit her for CLSG, SPGS, JAGS etc.

We were hoping to do state primary and a bit of tutoring and go for either 7+ or 11+ depending on how things were going, thus saving some money for a few years. Best would be moving at 11, but since the schools aren't great, 7 might be fairer on DD in terms of competition and how far behind she would be.

Moving would be difficult - where we live is relatively 'affordable' for being so central, and we couldn't afford to look at most of the other central areas. DH's job involves very long hours - if I'm lucky he's back home before 11pm once or twice a week and a long commute wouldn't work with his role.

The primaries are not great by any stretch of the imagination, but I hadn't expected that we probably wouldn't get in anywhere!

I bumped into the neighbours earlier who have 3 little boys - 2 at school and 1 at nursery. Apparently they didn't get offered anywhere either last year or the year before and are sending their kids to the London Christian School. I'm rather suprised they did get a place at any of the faith schools since they're pastors!

Anyway, they've given me a copy of the prospectus and told me that it's very nice and also quite religion-lite, so I'll probably take a look.

How long do you need to live somewhere to get a child into a Primary school? If we can't move, I suppose we could always try and rent something very cheap for a while next to one of the decent ones - totally wrong I know, but so is not providing enough school places! I'm joking btw - I think...

prh47bridge - that is something if the distance is initial offer.

With the school transport thing, does that mean that if the school is 600m away but on the other side of the Thames I wouldn't qualify for free-transport? Also, when they are little is it free-transport just for them or for a parent as well?

I am really joking - by the time you add up the cost of renting for that amount of time it would pay for a year at a private pre-prep whilst hoping to go up the waiting list!

Although if I had multiple DCs it would be very attractive as an option!