Reasonable distance to travel...

[Pyrrah]

I've been looking at all the primary schools in my local area and had a couple of questions...

I live in London, but in what is rather a penninsula and very close to the river which means I don't have a 360 degree choice of schools

Going across of the river would mean applying out of the borough and with a very difficult journey. We don't have a car, there are no bridges nearby and public transport would be hard even if we were to be allocated a place, although I will have a look at them.

So, there are a grand total of 6 primary schools within 2km of us. Of these, 3 are faith schools (2 RC, 1 CofE) and heavily oversubscribed - we are also staunch atheists. We're quite happy for DD to go to a faith school, but we aren't going to start going to church in order to try for a place - plus DH is technically Jewish.

Of the remaining 3, we are outside the 'furthest offered on distance' by a considerable margin for all but one - where we are just inside.

Our nearest school is one of the CofE faith schools - it's on the same street we live in, 350m away and I can pretty much see the front gate from our flat.

The one we are just inside the 'furthest offered on distance' is my 'over my dead body' option.

I spoke to one of the schools this morning who told me that they've already got 32 siblings who will be applying in September so over 50% of places gone already, and looking at the LA lists, around 50% sibling applications appears to be the norm at all the schools.

I've asked around people I know in the immediate area who have young children but they all seem to be religious and therefore going to the faith schools.

If we were to be offered nothing in the area, how long a journey do LA's consider to be acceptable - and is it measured using public transport/ timings from TFL?

What happens if there is no place in the borough available? Do they add a new class or increase a class over 30 pupils? Do they try and find you a place in another borough?

If distances are measured 'as the crow flies', does that count even if you live in another borough?

Grateful for any insights!

PRH - you say: "The one thing they cannot do is increase the class size over 30 pupils."

I know from reading this board that you are an expert and I am probably being pedantic but the above is not strictly true (I know this from experience!)

If enough people make enough of a fuss (for whatever reason) it IS possible to get a class size increased if they have the physical space. It just means that an additional teacher needs to be paid for (to keep the ratio's within the 30 children per teacher limit). Clearly this will make convincing them to do so more difficult.

I know the above to be true because I have seen it happen with my son's reception class.

Yes if the school offered is 600m as the crow flies but 2.5 miles by the nearest walking route you will get free transport for your child - but not for you. Lots of leas use taxis with crb checked drivers for littlies - but cross that bridge if you come to it.

OP,
You do need to look "across the river" to see what is available and any other LAs that are near to you, but it is the school admission criteria that will dictate how far down the order you are. Straight line distance measurement is literally what it says, it does not matter what little obstructions like rivers, motorways, airports get in the way, so you may well have a better chance of success across the river if the admission criteria is sibling and then distance.
It would be very unwise to assume that the LA will do something about school places in your immediate neighbourhood, because these decisions will be by their very nature last minute. You need to plan on the basis of what you know about the schools and which ones you believe that you might have a chance of getting a place at. If you have not been to the "over my dead body" school then I would arrange a visit ASAP. If nothing else it will give you a base line to compare other schools with and you might actually be surprised by the school.

I'm making up a short-list of places to look at.

I'm going to check out the London Christian School as well as it's about half the price of the ones in the City and looks very nice. If anyone has suggestions of other indie preps in the London Bridge type area or Canary Whaf would be grateful to hear about them!

I have seen the one I dislike - hence why I didn't like it, but will go and look again and see if it improves in the light of 'not much choice'...

admission - I've looked at the options across the river.

My LEA allocates distance 'as the crow flies', the LEA across the river allocates based on shortest walking distance.

I presume this rules out anything the other side of the Thames - ie I would fall under the other LEA's rules?

Oggy - Yes, you are correct that the requirement is no more than 30 children with a single teacher, not limiting the class to 30. However, it is rare for a school to put more children into the same space and take on an additional teacher for all kinds of reasons, not just financial.

Pyrrah - For admissions, as Admission says, if the criteria say straight line distance then that is what will be used, even if the straight line goes over a motorway. However, for school transport what matters is the shortest walking route. So if walking from your home to the nearest bridge, crossing the bridge and then walking to the school gave a route longer than 2 miles you would potentially be entitled to free transport even though the school is only 600m away by straight line distance.

They only have to provide transport for your child, not for you I'm afraid.

The nearest bridge is us is over 2.5 miles away...

If the other LEA is judging on walking distance then we would are just under 5 miles from the school that measures 600m as the crow flies, so we would definitely fail since the furthest that school accepted was 1000m.

Do they really expect children under 5 to travel unaccompanied?

I thought that my LA in London used 45 mins travelling time as criteria not distance prh47 am I wrong?

I also thought you had to be allocated the school not choose it IYSWIM again am I wrong?

Won't they have to provide a female escort if using w male taxi driver........?

Pyrrah - You need to understand that admissions and transport are completely separate and measure differently.

For admissions, if they measure by straight line you will be 600m from this school. You therefore have a good chance of getting a place.

For assessing your eligibility for free transport they have to use walking distance, so that would be nearly 5 miles. That doesn't necessarily mean you would be entitled to free transport, however. That depends on whether you could have got a place at a school that is closer to your home by walking distance.

The law does not require them to provide free transport for you, only for your child. That doesn't mean they can't - that is up to your LA, but most won't. I don't know what they do in your area but many LAs will provide a taxi with a CRB-checked driver for young children.

Southwest - The law is that the LA must provide free transport if the school is more than 2 miles walking distance from home and the child is under 8. Once the child reaches 8 the distance goes up to 3 miles (ignoring various special cases for children from low income families, children with SEN and disabled children). Your LA is allowed to provide free transport to children who don't qualify according to the law. So they can use 45 minutes travelling time as a basis if they want. However, they must provide free transport to children who live outside the statutory walking distance even if they are within 45 minutes travelling time.

The other part of the rule on eligibility is that you are only entitled to free transport if the LA cannot provide a place at a school closer to home. If you are allocated a place at a school that is not one of your preferences that would generally mean you are entitled to free transport. There are, however, circumstances in which you are entitled to free transport even though you have been allocated one of your preferences. Imagine, for example, that you have only two schools within the statutory walking distance. You name them as your first two preferences and put your next nearest school as your third preference. If you then get a place at your third preference you will be entitled to free transport as clearly there was no place for your child at either of the nearer schools.

No they will not have to provide a female escort if using a male taxi driver. They may choose to provide an escort (male or female) regardless of the sex of the driver so that the driver is never alone with the child, of course.

But prh if the school over the river's criteria is based on WALKING distance which she says it is she won't stand a cat's chance in hell of getting a place.....

titchy - Sorry - I missed that post. You are correct.

Pyrrah - My apologies. I missed your post that said the LA over the river allocates on walking distance. That being so you are very unlikely to get a place there.

'Won't they have to provide a female escort if using w male taxi driver........?'

..what ??!!! why would they?

Hmmm, I do have one possibility which I would like some advice on...

We own another property a couple of miles away which we remortgaged in order to buy our current property and which is currently rented to my BIL.

The school that I really, really like and that I would be over the moon to get a place at is between the two. Where we currently live is 5 stops on the bus from the school and it's opposite our nearest tube station, but we are just outside the 'furthest distance' thing. The other property is 200m closer in the other direction and within the 'furthest distance' thing but it would take far longer to get to the school.

What would be the situation given that we have owned the property for nearly 10 years and lived there until 2 years ago? We still pay the mortgage, bills etc

You'd have to actually live there, pay council tax, change doctors etc to be able to legitimately use that address.

Don't forget where you live now might well be close enough when you apply - the furthest distance will change each year. In my LA as well the furthest distance they quote doesn't include admissions after the initial allocation so you may wel get in off the waiting list.

Would the schools all be able to tell me what their waiting list situations have been in the past and what the furthest distance would be?

There have been a lot of new developments built round here and so a lot more people moving into the area - and no new schools built so I can only imagine the situation is going to get worse not better...

The LA should be able to tell you what the furthest distance has been in the past and may be able to give some indication as to how much movement there has been on the waiting list but they can't predict what will happen next year.

Dandelion to protect the taxi driver of course.

We had to supplied a council tax bill together with their birth certificate when dc started school. Yes they will be checking whether you really do live at the address and also most schools do a home visit the term before they start. I'd be wary about putting very young children on the school bus provided by LA where we live the drivers change daily and I've been about the quality of the driving having been tailgated by a few of them