Sorry.......... More appeal help needed here!

[tibywibs]

Hi All,

Have received the information from the council regarding my sons Y1 appeal, we have just moved from another town intona village and live opposite the primary school, also we don't anyone in the village so have gone on distance and the fact that my ds's social development may be damaged due him having to travel 2 miles to make friends.

The summary of the LA's case is as follows.

• admitted up to PAN
• catchment criterion no longer relevant (what! Why?)
• PAN set having regard to net capacity assessment
• places available at other schools in the area (yes over 2 miles away)
• cannot continue to increase pupil numbers (so it has already increased them)
• admission criteria objective - not on friendship groups, primary school attended, childcare arrangements, family or closr friends working in the school, lack of a family car (have never been asked about a car), secondary school specialism, medical conditions not sufficient to warrant a statement of special educational needs, the impact of shift work or the pupil's academic ability.

Help me! As for the last statement, what is my appeal based on!i've heard there's a book you can buy on Amazon on how to successfully appeal if anyone knows what it is?? Just don't know where to go from here!

Sorry it's long winded, and thanks in advance!

I'm not sure that the distance and friendship issues are relevant.

If they are up to PAN level, which is presumably set at what the school's facilities can cope with, you would surely need some additional information to disprove the fact that they can't admitting your child would be detrimental to the school.

I'm assuming that you do have transport as it would be foolish to move to a country village without considering the logistics of how you will get about. I drive 3 miles each morning to take my dc to a village school which is not the closest to us. As a consequence I do have to put myself out driving the dc around for social life purposes with their friends. I'd be annoyed if the school admitted children of any newcomers to the village and made the school overcrowded just because the parents had chosen to move to that village and wanted an instant social life for their child.

I'm really not sure you have grounds for an appeal so you may have to suck it up and put time and effort into ferrying your children round to make sure the social side of things goes smoothly for them.

Put your child on the school waiting list - its all you can do! Then move them to the school 2 miles away and hope that a place comes up quickly. Its been my experience that there is a high turnover in schools, especially the older years.

Id make an effort to make friends locally by joining beavers, church groups, football club etc. You might need to volunteer your help to get him in to some groups, especially scouty ones.

My childs school is 5 miles away, and we have no issue with friends coming to us - in fact, its a bit of an adventure!

Your reasons are not strong enough for a successful appeal. If it was that simple to get a place then everyone would do it.

In your shoes I'd get him on the waiting list and home educate until a spot comes up, send him to the other school until year6 or try another appeal in y3. 2 miles is not far and won't prevent friendships It might mean that you have to do a little more driving than the others.

Have you visited the other school?

I have visited both schools and they are both lovely. I wouldn't mind him going to the school in the next village, (although it doesn't do as well academically, which i know isn't everything!) however i think it's ridiculous that we can see the school from our front door and yet he may not be allowed a place. I understand that there has tobe a cut off point but there are 47 children in his year already when the pan is 45 and 2 classes per year until y3 when there is some mixed teaching so there are approx 24 children in a class in ks1 and 30-32 in a class in ks2, hardly overcrowded compared to some schools. The school is the best in the area, it is a place where people don't leave, and the secondary school in the village is also outstanding so there is no cause to leave the school (i could hope that someone will emigrate!!). I also don't want to try again in ks2. He's already had to leave friends behind once and i wouldn't do that again for my own convenience. When speaking to the council though, it has been hinted at that living opposite the school means there's a very strong chance of the appeal being successful.

Sadly, from what you have written you don't appear to have grounds for appeal. Hopefully someone like PRH or Admission (or one of the other lovely people who are very well versed on admissions and appeals) will come along to help

• admitted up to PAN - If the PAN is 15, 30 or multiples thereof, it is likely that your appeal will be an Infant Class Size appeal. If you cannot prove that a mistake was made during the admission process (a mistake wasn't made, your admission is an in year admission) then you will very likely lose the appeal. catchment criterion no longer relevant (what! Why?) - As you are an in year admission/ appeal, catchment criteria is no longer relevant. The catchment criteria will* be relevant for your position on the waiting list though.
• PAN set having regard to net capacity assessment - Basically, I believe they are saying that the school is at capacity and, to admit another pupil would be to the detriment of the other pupils. I could be wrong on this point though.
• places available at other schools in the area (yes over 2 miles away) - The LA can only offer you a school place where they are available. If the nearest school place they offer you is over 2 miles away, then your DS will be entitled to school transport until the age of 8. If the school place is over 3 miles away (or there is no safe walking route) he will be entitled to school transport for the duration he is at that school
• cannot continue to increase pupil numbers (so it has already increased them) - They may have increased pupil numbers in previous years, it would be worth asking the LA for the relevant information for Yr1 class sizes in previous years. If they have had years where the previous Yr1 class size was larger than it currently is, then this may be your best hope of appeal.
• admission criteria objective - not on friendship groups, primary school attended, childcare arrangements, family or closr friends working in the school, lack of a family car (have never been asked about a car), secondary school specialism, medical conditions not sufficient to warrant a statement of special educational needs, the impact of shift work or the pupil's academic ability. - None of this is relevant to your appeal. It is not the LA's responsibility to ensure your child is placed in a school to convenience you.

Sorry, probably not what you were looking for, but sadly many schools are oversubscribed and trying to get an in year admission for some schools is impossible. Good luck if you do decide to appeal, but I would definitely place your DS on the waiting list.

Thanks Bunnyjo,
I'm annoyed at the council worker who, when i asked what the likely outcome of the appeal would be was (and i quote), you have a strong case for appeal. I bet that yelephone conversation wasn't recorded was it! The appeal is on the 10th of Feb, i am now annoyed at how much expense will have gone into this (la's not mine) andwhy i am even allowed to appeal if there is no chance! I know for a fact it is not an infant class size appeal as it is stated on the appeal form that itis not. I am waiting to see what prh47 and admission plus others may have to say if they read the thread as they have helped previously!!!!

It would have been verging on ridiculous if you had applied for a reception place in the usual manner, whilst living opposite the school, and not got a place, but you have to accept that you moved in year and once a recpetion cohort of children have been admitted they then go on to take all the available places in Y1, Y2 etc etc as they move up through the school.

It is therefore not ridiculous that you can see the school from your front door but may not be allowed a place. It is what it is, you moved too late to have a good chance of getting a place. You say yourself the school is the best in the area, people don't leave.

You are the one costing the LA time and money on an appeal if you decide to go ahead with it. They are merely following regulations which are there for sound reasons.

Your son will surely make friends whichever school he goes to, his social development will progress anyway just with a different set of kids who aren't on your doorstep. It's just that your life would be easier if he went to the school across the road and had mates in the village. There's probably a local Beavers group he can join (although you may have to volunteer to assist if places are in short supply, in order to get him in). Local kids will kick a football around, be out on their bikes in the summer, you can network for him and invite kids round, it'll just require more effort on your part.

I'm guessing that when you moved you hadn't researched the school situation fully ?

I had researched fully and as i previously posted was told my appeal was a strong one. If it is me wasting money, then i shouldn't be allowed to even try get my son into the school should i????

Why didn't you look into all this before you moved? Just curious.

If the school is full, it's full. It isn't ridiculous that you can see the school from your front door and yet not attend, because you moved after the usual entry point.

I would forget what the council worker told you, she maybe misunderstand the situation.

Have the LA mentioned the magic words "infant class size" or "class size prejudice" in their case? From what you have posted it doesn't sound like they are making an infant class size case but it is important to be sure. If they have not mentioned either of those phrases this is an ordinary appeal which means you will have a better chance of winning. However, if this is an infant class size appeal I'm afraid you should only win if you can show that a mistake has been made which is unlikely.

Without seeing exactly what they've said, their case sounds fairly weak from what you have posted. There is plenty there about how they have followed the correct process but they don't seem to have said anything at all about the problems the school will face if your child is admitted. Normally I would at least expect them to talk about crowding in the corridors and communal areas or something like that. Here it seems all they have said is that they cannot continue to increase pupil numbers without justifying that statement. If the LA cannot show that admitting your child will cause problems for the school the appeal panel is required to decide in your favour.

Just to interpret their case for you:

admitted up to PAN

That basically means Y1 is full. If it wasn't they would have to admit your son.

catchment criterion no longer relevant

As an in year admission the only question they need to answer is whether or not the school has a place available. If it does and your son is the only child applying he must be offered the place. If there is no place available the fact you are in catchment simply ensures you get priority on the waiting list. It does not get you a place at the school. I'm not really sure why they feel the need to say this as part of their case.

PAN set having regard to net capacity assessment

So they have followed the law. The net capacity assessment is the number of pupils the school can accommodate if it is full up. The PAN for a primary school is usually the net capacity divided by 7 (as there are 7 years in the school) but they can set it higher or lower than this figure. Have they stated the net capacity of the school and the number of pupils currently on the roll?

places available at other schools in the area

If there were no places within a reasonable distance they would have to deal with you under their Fair Access Protocol, which may have resulted in you getting a place at this school. Again, not quite sure why they have felt the need to say this. The panel can see the allocated school so it is obvious that a place is available there. I'm afraid the fact it is over 2 miles away does not make the distance unreasonable. Note, however, that your son is entitled to free school transport if it is over 2 miles walking distance.

cannot continue to increase pupil numbers

Why? On its own that statement is useless. They need to justify it.

admission criteria objective

Again, that's just saying they have followed the law.

You can certainly talk about the damage to your son's social development if he goes to the allocated school but I wouldn't regard that as a particularly strong case. That won't matter if the panel decide that the LA haven't shown the school will suffer if your son is admitted but it is worth trying to improve your case. Look for any features of this school that are missing from the allocated school which would be of particular benefit to your son. For example, if your son has an aptitude for music and this school has a school band but the allocated school doesn't that would be worth raising.

If the LA's case does not say what problems the school will suffer if your son is admitted I wouldn't ask them any questions about that in the hearing as they may come up with a good answer. I would wait until you are asked to summarise your case at the end of the hearing and then point out that the LA has failed to produce any evidence to show that admitting your son will cause prejudice to the school.

Sorry - I'd only read your initial post before my last reply.

living opposite the school means there's a very strong chance of the appeal being successful

That shouldn't be a factor for the appeal panel. I think what gives you a strong chance of success is the apparent weakness of the LA's case.

Two classes per year throughout infants is unusual with an admission number of 45. I would normally expect two classes in Reception and then three classes covering Y1 and Y2. As you say, this organisation means it is clearly not infant class size.

If they had 45 in every year the classes in KS2 would each have 30 children. The fact that at least some classes are bigger than that shows that other years are also over PAN. It would be useful to know if any years have 48 or more pupils. If they do it suggests they can cope with Y1 going up to 48 and would be worth raising in the appeal.

A PAN of 45 would suggest a net capacity of 315. If it is higher than that it will help you. It may also be worth asking the LA for the calculated capacity of the school. That will be a range rather than a single figure. If the net capacity has been set towards the bottom of this range that will help you.

I disagree with those who say you are wasting the LA's money. You have the right to appeal, the same as any other parent.

Thank God you've arrived prh47!! Can i call the admissions department for those figures?

Yes. They are required to answer any reasonable question you ask to help you prepare your appeal.

With an admission number of 45, I would have assumed that the classes were as follows...
YrR 30
YrR / Yr1 30
Yr1 30
Yr1 / Yr2 30
Yr 2 30

Not quite sure why they would currently have 47 Yr1 pupils if that was the case, other than assuming that for the previous year (so for Yr2 as it stands now) they were slightly undersubscribed. If you are correct and they do have 2 classes per year group, then your appeal is not an Infant Class Size appeal, which would be very good news for your appeal.

As prh has said, the LA are required to answer all reasonable questions that you are using to prepare your appeal, so I would certainly be asking whether this appeal is ICS, about previous years admissions, current number of pupils etc. Although, I fear your appeal is a really difficult one and one you may well not succeed on, I certainly do not feel you are wasting yours or the LA's time/ money. You have the right of appeal and you may get a panel who are sympathetic or get that nugget of information which bolsters your case. Again, good luck and let us know how you get one.

Get on not one...

We did an in year appeal last year for a year 1 place, and the school we wanted had offered places to more than their "allowed" number for this current reception year (our appeal was the end of last school year).

But we lost our appeal, the borough still stuck to the line that they couldn't accomodate extra numbers (not enough playground space, computers, desks etc), even though they had extra student starting the following year in the reception class.

Very, very, very frustrating.

We have a PAN of 45. our classes are arranged as follows:

2 x reception classes of 22 and 23

3 x mixed Yr 1/2 with 30 in each class

3 x mixed Yr 3/4 with 30 in each class

3 x mixed Yr 5/6 with 30 in each class

I wonder how on earth the school can afford to run classes of 22/23 at year 1 and 2.

From the OP there are 47 in the year group at present with an admission number of 45. They are running the school with two classes in reception, two in year 1 and two in year 2. Because of this the class sizes in the junior years will be 30+., but that is decision that the school has made around how they wish to organise the classes. The key issue here is that the school have decided to have two small classes of 24 and 23 rather than have three classes of 30 across years 1 and 2.

So they have a class of 23 in the year group in a classroom designed for 30. As a panel member my immediate reaction is that the case not to admit is weak because firstly there is another class with 24 in it - what is therefore the problem with one extra pupil to make both classes 24 and secondly that the classroom is designed for 30 pupils and there are 23. However the key issue that I would looking at is the numbers this generates in the junior classes. At 32 or 33 I would probably be prepared to admit, above that the reasons for admission would have to be that much more convincing for me to admit.

So in the first part of the appeal, you need to argue that the class size is for 30 and that there are only 23 and that the other class in the year group has 24 so why can't the other class. A bonus would be if other year groups have more than 47 as that just confirms that admission appeal panels have been admitting extra pupils to year groups as they don't think the school is making a good case not to admit.

At stage 2 you have the opportunity to argue why your child should go to the school. At the end of stage 2 what the panel does is balance the reasons to admit against the prejudice to the school and existing pupils by admitting. In a case like this I would expect the level of prejudice to the school to be low and therefore the more reasons that you can quote for going to this school the better. Obviously the proximity to the school is one, the fact that it will allow your child to develop a local friendship group is another (especially having moved into a village situation). Also relevant will be the ability to go to after school club activities which would be difficult in the other school as you do not drive. You need to be looking at anything else that the local school does that the other school might not - clubs, football, tennis, art classes? In their own right none of these is a strong reason to admit, but with a low level of prejudice they might be enough to sway the panel to admit. It has clearly happened before - that is why there are 47 in the year group, so whilst every increase makes it more difficult to admit another, you must go to appeal and be positive.

The list under the reasons not to admit of admission criteria objective is I believe an indication of the weakness of their case. What they trying to do is push the panel to not take any of these issues into consideration. Well they can all be taken into consideration, it is totally for the panel to decide what weight to apply to them. I would throw it back into the LAs face by saying these things above are important to you and to your child and that they therefore should be given some weight in the panel's decision. It can't do you any harm as far as I see it in stage 2 of the appeal and might just win you the appeal.

I'm not an expert in admissions or demographics (!!) but most everywhere there is a "bulge" in class sizes in Y1 and Reception. Presumably the school will need to be forward thinking enough to let the "bulge" follow through the school. And it sounds like they have sufficient classrooms to accommodate this. Presumably the LA should know how long the "bulge" is going to happen for - and if they don't then surely it is their business to know?

Wow! You are all amazing. I could only hope to know half as much (on any subject) as you kind people!
I hate all the "big words" they often go right over my head, so am worried they may flummox me with their vocab when allnthey want to say is schools full, end of!

For any one interested the class breakdown is as follows,
R,Y1,Y2 2 classes
Y3&Y4 3 mixed classes
Y5&Y6 3 mixed classes

This is definately not an Infant Class Size appeal, this has been confirmed by th LA admissions department.

I have contacted them regarding the size of classes in previous years and hope to have that information tomorow. The appeal is on Friday at 9.15 at the Town Hall (no less!)

As i said, i'm not great with words, but i do know i'm "bricking it" already!

Is the fact that there are male teachers at the preferred school valid? I do personally believe that it is important to have a positive male role in schools but obviously wouldn't argue that they are better teachers than ladies as i do not think this is true.
Also, should i include the reason for our move? Recently separated from husband, who we now don't see very often (his choice not mine!) and have moved closer to family. Should the panel know this or not? Don't want to be discussing our home life if it's not relevent and will be seen as a sob story!

Bumpity bump bump bump

I thought I posted a reply to this yesterday!

Personally I wouldn't mention the bit about male teachers. It is too easy for someone to take it the wrong way.

I don't think the reason for your move is directly relevant but it may be worth mentioning just to help the panel understand your situation.

Thanks prh47!
I've also found out the school numbers you said i should ask for.

R 47, Y1 47, Y2 55!!!!, Y3 46, Y4 44, Y5 44, Y6 47

Does it help or hinder me that the year above has 55?
It shows that they can cope with that many in a year, however could be a problem when the classes mix. LA said there were a lot of successful appeals that year due to sibling links.

The capacity range you also advised to get is as follows (although not sure i fully understand!)
Maximum work places available 360
Minimum work places available 315
Capacity based on planned admission number 315
Net capacity 315
Indicated admissions number 45
Pupils on roll 331

Sorry to be a pain in the arse keep asking, but can anyone offer advice on the previous post?