Sorry.......... More appeal help needed here!

[tibywibs]

Hi All,

Have received the information from the council regarding my sons Y1 appeal, we have just moved from another town intona village and live opposite the primary school, also we don't anyone in the village so have gone on distance and the fact that my ds's social development may be damaged due him having to travel 2 miles to make friends.

The summary of the LA's case is as follows.

• admitted up to PAN
• catchment criterion no longer relevant (what! Why?)
• PAN set having regard to net capacity assessment
• places available at other schools in the area (yes over 2 miles away)
• cannot continue to increase pupil numbers (so it has already increased them)
• admission criteria objective - not on friendship groups, primary school attended, childcare arrangements, family or closr friends working in the school, lack of a family car (have never been asked about a car), secondary school specialism, medical conditions not sufficient to warrant a statement of special educational needs, the impact of shift work or the pupil's academic ability.

Help me! As for the last statement, what is my appeal based on!i've heard there's a book you can buy on Amazon on how to successfully appeal if anyone knows what it is?? Just don't know where to go from here!

Sorry it's long winded, and thanks in advance!

The 55 in year 2 is in your favour as it clearly shows that the classes can be bigger than 47. However I do not underestimate that this is going to cause problems later on, that the panel need to take into consideration. In effect you will have 47 + 55 = 102 in year 3 /4 classes, that is 34 in each of three classes. If you get a place then that is 35 in one class. Personally as a panel member I would now be very much at my top limit for how many I would want in any class. So again you need to emphasise your personal reasons for this school and yes I would definitely mention the circumstances of the need for a place at this school because of secure family ties after breakdown of marriage and split from husband.

The net capacity is a calculation of the number of pupil work stations that will fit in the school. The maximum work places is the actual number of calculated work places. The minimum work places should be 90% of the maximum figure and the school is allowed to set the net capacity at any figure which is sensible between the two. 90% of 360 is 324, so I am not sure why the minimum number of work stations has been set at 315, other than a net capacity of 315 is an admission number of 45, which is a good figure to set when taking into consideration the infant class size regs of no more than 30 in a class. If you take the maximum work places of 360 that is 51 per year group. Any figure like 50 is an absolute nightmare when it comes to setting up class sizes, so the school have taken the practical decision to set 315 as the net capacity and 45 as the admission number.

the good news for you is that it allows you to quote this figure of 360 and say that the school has ample room to take another pupil in yr 1 as they are no where near the real net capacity of the school of 360. Another angle to explore given the high work space numbers is whether they have a spare classroom they are not using, I suspect that this may be the reason for the 360 figure.

They have had a spare classroom, that they were using for one on one tuition, however, according to the admissions department at the LA that is now used for teaching.
I seem to remember when looking around though that the headteacher said something about the new addition, meaning extra classrooms, they were all being used. I have discovered that there was an estate of new houses built on the outskirts of the village in 2000 (and still going!) and this has seriously impacted on the school, possibly the reason for extension and mixed classes as the village is rather small without the inclusion of the new builds.

I did actually wonder if the maximum figure was a typo as 315 is 90% of 350. A maximum of 360 would make sense if there were 12 classrooms all capable of taking 30 children whereas 350 would mean some classrooms were to small for 30. However, even at 350 they are well short of the maximum capacity so you can definitely use that argument.

I am intrigued as to why Y2 is so far over PAN. I would enquire as to the reasons for that. It may not throw up anything useful but you never know.

Y2 is far over PAN because there were a lot of successful sibling based appeals that year (i would presume out of catchment??)

Would they argue though that with 55 in Y2 they cannot accept anymore pupils in Y1 for when they mix year groups?

Their explanation for Y2 seems odd. However...

Yes, they can argue that it will cause problems when the current Y1 mixes with Y2. They are already heading for 34 pupils per class. If your son is admitted that gives at least one class of 35. That is the strongest point against admitting your son. You can still win, though.

Their explanation for the number of appeals could be right if the admission criteria previously did not give much priority to siblings but prioritised catchment children. A panel may have concluded that it was unfair to split siblings up but to admit 10 over PAN seems excessive and I wonder whether that is the excuse for a mistake having been made somewhere in the admission process.

Mmmm.... Maybe so Admission, i just wanted to say thanks again for all of the help everyone has given me, especially to PRH47bridge and Admission your knowledge is invaluable!
I am still totally petrified but i think i may have been eaten alive at the appeal without all the tips and pointers
Thank the lord for mumsnetters!
Appeal on friday, i hope i am able to stay calm and remember what i've been taught! Will have a dreadful weekend though as don't find out til Monday the outcome!!!

Crikey-do you really want your child to be in a class of 35 when they are in the juniors!?

I'd rather that than in a class of 20 in the school we were offered!
Preferred school is outstanding on ofsted and above and beyond all that, the pupils when we visited were bright, enthusiastic and fully engaged in what the teachers were saying. There are excellent facilities, and super sports equipment which appeals to us, as my son needs to get rid of energy!!

letseatgrandma I wish my yr4 DD had been in a class of 35. Her class for yr 3 and yr 4 was 39. We managed to move her for yr5 to a school with 23 in each class.
The junior school we moved her from only has 2 classes with less than 35 pupils in and it is a school with 9 classes in total.

As a teacher, a class of 35 would very far from ideal.

Yes, a class of 35 is a little on the large size. Mind you, I was in a class of 44 in what we would now call Y6, but that was a very long time ago!

More seriously, if a child leaves Y1 or Y2 within the next 18 months they will not be replaced so it is quite possible that a class of 35 will be avoided.

tibywibs,
do not be overawed by the panel or the process. There has to be a formal process as it is a quasi legal situation but a good chair of the panel will help you as much as possible to get over your nerves. Tears are optional but are not to be recommended, so it is best if you can keep calm and controlled in what you ask and in what you say in part 2.
You should also remember that whilst the presenting officer for the LA may have done it a good few times before they also can get quite nervous, especially if they know that they are working with a weak case.
I would make sure that you take some notes with you of the main things that you wish to say in part 2 of the appeal - when you present your reasons for wanting a place. In part 1 the LA will be arguing that the school cannot take any more pupils and the reasons behind this. The panel would normally have plenty of questions that they want answering but you need in part 1 to be asking questions also (and that is what has to happen, questions not statements) about the year 2 numbers, whether the two year 1 classes are the same size, asking why the work station number is so high in comparison with the stated net capacity etc.

thanks so much admission,
I am armed with my statements for part 2, i have set these out in bulletpoint form as i think i'll stumble if i write out a speech! But hadn't thought of asking questions in part one!
I am very much a cryer! (went to see Fireman Sam at the weekend and cried at the end of that!) but i feel that i will be assertive but not stand offish. One piece of advice i've had is "be nice, but don't take any s**t!"
Will spend the day tomorrow going over notes, washing and blow drying hair (it wontknow what's hit it, been in a pony tail for 6 months!) and choosing sensible clothes!
Wish i hadn't taken my son with me to look around schools now now as he really hopes we win the appeal, but hey ho what will be will be!

Thanks again for answering and sharing your knowledge. If i am successful, you and prh47bridge will have played a very large part in that and i will be eternally grateful!

Admission, me again!!
When you say i should ask why the work station number is so high in comparison with the stated net capacity, are all classrooms geared to fit 30 pupils? Could it be possible that with a PAN of 45 the classrooms are smaller?

Also, reading through the appeal paperwork, i thought i'd share the decision of the LA not to admit my ds.

The LA determined an admission limit for this year group of 45 children in accordance with the requirements of the various Education Acts.
There are 47 children in Year 1. The LA considered a request for admission, outside of the "normal admission round", to Year 1 but decided it could not agree to the request as the admission limit had been reached and there were places at other schools available to the parent.
The LA decided it could not exceed the limit in the high provisions of section 86(3) of the 1998 School Standards and Framework Act, where it has stated "the duty imposed (on the LA to comply with parental preferences) does not apply if compliance with the preference would prejudice the provision of efficient education or the efficient use of resources", and refused the application on these grounds .

This seems fairly weak to me, but who am I to know! All i can do is my best!

Stressing out! Anyone there?

Tibbywibs,
The LA statement is the standard type of information that anybody receiving a rejection of a request for a place would receive. It has no relevance to the appeal other than it states what the LA have to prove at the appeal, that admitting one more pupil would prejudice the provision of efficient education or the efficient use of resources.
As far as classrooms are concerned the answer is that they are not necessarily geared to 30, especially the older the classroom is. For an admission number of 45 and therefore a total of 315 pupils the normal number of classrooms is 11. In your case you have 12 that you know are being used, which would suggest that the school can take 30 x 12 = 360 pupils if they are of normal size and that just happens to be the maximum work stations that is quoted.
I think that the net capacity figure of 315 is a figure that they want because it suits them having 45 per year group but does not actually equate to the real capacity of the school. That is why there have been quite a few successful appeals because the panels are seeing through the figures quoted by the LA. Your problem is that you are coming to this when there have already been admissions from appeals and that is going to make for some big classes in the juniors.
If I was the head of this school and I did not want to have pupils over 30 then I would not be running with 2 classes in each of the infant years. That is more or less a guarantee that parents will try and appeal as the classes are so small. I would have two classes for reception and then have 3 classes across years 1 and 2. What that would do is mean that any appeals would be infant class size appeals which would be much more difficult to win. Yes they may well have to accept appeals being won in the junior years but the number applying would probably not be that many and this would keep the numbers down in the junior years. The other thing I would do which would be quiet legitimate is to dedicate one of the classrooms as an SEN / small group work room and it could then be taken out of the workplace and net capacity calculation.
Best of luck tomorrow

Nothing to add to Admission's reply but to add my best wishes for tomorrow. Let us know how you get on!

Thanks lovelies! Just doing last minute preparations before trying to get some sleep!

Good luck and best wishes for today OP, you have prepared your appeal very well and I hope you achieve the desired outcome.

Well! That wasn't as bad as i thought!
Panel were lovely and the LA's choice advisor came in with me and added little bits we'd chatted about, So that was great too.
Particularly enjoyed the outburst of laughter and shaking heads from the panel when the LA representative stated the distance from our house to school was 35 metres! Even i thouht it would've been further than that!
So fingers crossed now til i can call on monday.
Thank you so so much to all who have posted, you've helped me no end xxxxxxx