What is "just a bit odd" and what is something more?

[SenseofEntitlement]

DD1 is 5 in March and in reception.

She wets herself maybe two or three days a week at school (sometimes twice or three times a day) and nearly every day at home. She has had the odd poo accident, but that is rare (once a month if that) She has a pull up at night. She has never really been dry to the point where I would go out without a change for her, although she had had times where she has been better than this. She also rarely tells us, although she never told us if her nappy needed changing either.

She is, however, very clever academically. I know I am her mum, so I would say that, but she is a fluent reader, she does workbooks at home for key stage one with no help, she is like a sponge for knowledge. She doesn't, however, show this at school (it is apparently a funny secret that she can read )

The school nurse is a bit concerned and has asked us to go to see her and to measure how much wee dd1 can do at once (how you do this with a wiggly four year old I have no idea) and to think if she seems to have any other issues in general.

Now, DD1 is odd. Up to now we have always just thought of her as endearingly eccentric. We say she is like a little blonde Wednesday Adams :)

What sort of things would ring alarm bells, as being beyond just being a bit odd, and into concerning?

I have worked with children this age group, and I think that the things she says are not odd, as far as I can see.

The toileting problems need tackling though.

But your example at the park, where you encourage her to ask the other girls name, is just 100% normal 4 year old ! Or her not talking on the phone to granny, the combination of shy and bossy....all quite "average" and I would not jump to a diagnosis built on that.

I am a bit worried about you labelling her "odd", when kids this age are often very random (and funny!).

Agree with Chandon. And sure, the toileting issue needs addressing. I also think the hiding issue needs addressing. But it's important to see them for what they are, and not automatically assume that they are symptoms of a very serious disorder.

But surely a paediatrician isn't going to assume anything. Sure diagnosis by Internet is not reliable, but advice to see a professional about your concerns seems fair enough.

SoE I do remember some of your posts under a previous name (not a stalker :o you are on my FB list from a while back, I'm DTB) and a lot of them have mentioned DD being quirky/eccentric and so on. So while I agree that many of the things you've mentioned on this thread are normal, maybe in combination they are too much to ignore. And the point is, your mummy instinct is telling you maybe there is something there - to me, that is enough to warrant an appointment. And I'm guessing even if every single poster on this thread said "oh no that's all normal" you might still feel a bit concerned anyway? Especially given your own struggles at school.

I also agree with Indigo - they really don't hand out diagnoses like candy. I know people who have fought for years to get them, and it really is damaging to wait so long. If you get her assessed and nothing shows up, fair enough. But if it does, then you will be very glad you got the ball rolling early, unlike your mum when you were at school.

I got similar advice to this recently about DS - I am very concerned about his lack of communication. It seemed normal (just a bit slow) when he was a bit younger but now (2.5) he is massively behind and various things are making me worry about his overall development. I'm going to ask for a hearing test first and if that's clear I will go back to the GP.

Concerning is when your child has a characteristic that is disruptive to others in the classroom or elsewhere (eg wetting herself and taking up the teacher's attention getting her changed) or upsetting to herself. Odd is when your child has a characteristic that does not necessarily endear herself to others and might cause problems socially later on if the behaviour continues and could therefore become concerning. Normal is boring. The problem with odd behaviour is that you may be leaving it too late if you say and do nothing about it until it has become concerning, particularly if there is a family history of particular types of oddness that did cause problems, or anxiety or depression, as a result of trying to deal with the perceived differences without any help, understanding or support. Getting the balance right is something that most people don't manage, largely because society is so unhelpful and judgmental and children are expected to be able to do particular things in particular ways at particular times to fit in with the school timetable, making the "wait and seers" morally right but practically wrong.

Please get the toileting sorted as a matter of urgency. dont be fobbed off.

If you see some of my other posts you will see how common it is for there to be a medical reason for wetting and soiling. In our case it was totally misdiagnosed and many of the behavioural and social issues where caused by the misdiagnosis ie from being wet or in pain. Once toileting is resolved then you can determine if there any other issue to resolve or it is just personality.

Vital to drink lots of water to improve bladder control which may be the opposite to what you think if wetting. There are quite a few people posting on MN like ourselves who were unaware of any signs of constipation yet had faecal impaction diagnosed eventually so please consider this and see all possible symptoms on my post on AIBU.

Happy to help further.

Can I just say that it's unusual on mumsnet to have a thread where people are saying "you ought to get your child assessed" or "no you ought not to" and debating with each other. When I "lived" on the special needs board we were always very cautious about doing this. We have to follow the OP's lead here as she knows her child best. Only she can work out if and how her family can forge a relationship with professionals that works for her, her husband, her child, her teachers, etc. She is the expert on this child.

I think this is a helpful comment:
"I work with children with SEN aged about 7/8; not weird, not labelled, just with some particular issue that needs some attention in the artificial environment of school, and part of me just really wants to hop in a time machine and give them some support aged 5"

sorry, should add I don't mean about the toiletting - I have absolutely no experience there.

I mean about the communication issues.

Having things ruled out can be a relief as well - so not sure why people are saying to ignore your concerns.

With DS family and friends told us to ignore our concerns about his speech.

Instead I mentioned them to his school nursery key worker who told us they'd had him assessed internally as they'd had concerns, not mentioned to us, and it had been decided he was borderline and she encouraged us to get it looked at further. We did though just before assessment he made a huge leap in language.

However the speech therapist made a point of saying we'd done the right thing getting it properly checked and we are now sure certain conditions are not problems for him. We also got his hearing tested which again was fine so we know his actual ears are fine.

Talk to the nurse, her teacher and the GP and mention your concerns - they are in the best place to gauge what is going on with your DD and to rule things out or get further assessments.

I should probably say why my experiences make me so keen to have her assessed.

I had some issues as a child. There were sensory issues (such as not being able to cope, at all, with a shower) I had phobias of all sorts. I had a bad lisp that made it hard for people to understand me. I had obsessions that would take over my entire life, and I would cram myself into corners because I liked the solid feelings. Right from Infants I was getting in trouble for misreading situations with other children (for example looking over the toilet cubicles to see who was there). I still wet myself a few times in high school. I couldn't do buttons any better than a very small child. My handwriting was utterly awful. I would zone out and be totally unresponsive for a couple of minutes. Once I was a teenager, I would go months without washing, because I didn't see why it would be a problem. I didn't brush my hair or teeth for weeks at a time, because it made me panic. I couldn't ride a bike till I was 12, when I still had to get off to go up and down kerbs or hills. I still can't swim more than five metres of doggy paddle. If someone touched me unexpectedly I would panic and scream, and if I even saw someone touching their knee or eye I would feel physically sick. I used odd expressions in my speech and I would ask questions that confused people because they didn't follow what was expected.

What was done?

Six sessions of speech therapy and hearing tests. I was held under showers, screaming, and forced up stairs until I was lying, terrified, on the landing. I had one good teacher that knew to break things down bit by bit for me, who wanted me to be assessed by an educational psychologist, which my mum refused on the grounds that she thought people would poke their noses into our family (I have no idea what she thought they would find). I would constantly be in trouble. I was bullied constantly, and I believed the bullies. From the age of 14 onwards, I was self harming (in fact I first remember self harming at the age of six, but it didn't get regular till I was 14). My parents say I was always the difficult one.

I ended up seriously mentally ill. I now have bipolar, have been in and out of hospital and will always be on strong medication. I'm pretty sure I would have got ill anyway - I think my brain is just generally broken - but I'm also sure that I could have been spared a lot of the unhappiness when I was a child.

I don't blame anyone - this was the mid 1990's, I could read and write (very well, actually - by the time I was in high school I was reading my mum's medical textbooks for fun) and I was capable of making eye contact and being hugged (the fact that I didn't was seen as just shyness) so there wasn't anything recognised as a problem. I am definitely not so bad now, unless I am having a bad time with the whole mental thing.

I was all set to HE the kids, until my mental health made it clear that it wasn't an option. Now DD1 is at a lovely school, and I try not to be anxious, but I can see my old habits in her - everyone who knew me as a child says that she is just like me at that age. They think I was just a bit shy and odd, and I try to keep my views otherwise to myself because it wouldn't do any good to share them now.

Now do you see why I am desperate for my children to have any issues recognised?

for you.

Sorry, this thread is about DD, not me, but I thought it would explain why I am maybe concerned about stuff that other people would just leave for a bit.

Of course it is natural to want to protect your DCs from the stuff you endured yourself. It hurts having parents who won't fight your corner

It doesn't really matter what any of us say, the fact is that you are concerned and want to do the best by your little girl by following that up. Even if she doesn't 'fit' a label, she still needs help with some issues and with you on her side she should be able to get it. (incidentally I agree with medicalmisdiagnosis, you should check out faecal impaction as a cause of the wetting)

Best of luck :)

Would faecal impaction still be a possibility given that she has very regular, large and smelly, er, doings? She never complains of belly ache or anything either, although fruit does make her very loose. (I feel a bit weird discussing her poo!)

Sorry about your childhood . I can totally understand where you're coming from. I think taking some control over the situation and having her assessed independently will really help you - either to let go of the similarities between you, or to feel that she is being taken care of a lot better than you were.

Her explanation of the weeing is "I can't feel the wee in my tummy"

Which I think is just something she has picked up, as if she had never felt it in her tummy she wouldn't know that she should, iyswim?

Well, she isn't supposed to feel it in her tummy, is she? She should feel it in her bladder... She knows it comes out from inside her, though, so would describe that as her tummy.

Maybe she feels it sometimes SoE so knows what that feeling is eg. when doing things which are less absorbing. Perhaps she finds it hard to 'multi-task' so if she is really absorbed in something she doesn't notice 'the feeling'. Just a guess. Have you noticed any links between her remembering to go and not remembering. My dd is a lot worse when she is tired, which makes sense, as it's harder to be engaged in anything including the 'wee feeling' when you're tired.

Not read whole thread just your first post OP and the one where you describe your DD

She sounds very similar to mine, who has also just started reception, and was wetting herself.

She was wetting herself because of a combination of

• forgetting to go what with it beign exciting
• not being brave enough to put her hand up and ask
• Being scared to go because there might be older children in there

Have you ruled that sort of thing out?

And also leaving it til the last minute through a combination of all the above as well, and not making it there in time.

I think it's more likely to be a symptom of her dyslexia (ie poor body awareness) than something physical.

It is not really a question of you can either feel it or you can't - you need the signal to be strong enough for you to know you have to prioritise it over other activities; you need enough notice that you need to go in order to make it to the toilet on time; you need to be able to control the correct muscles so that different muscles contract or relax at the right times rather than the whole lot emptying out involuntarily or being stuck in your bladder until it is full to bursting; you need to be relaxed enough about it to be happy to trot off to a potentially filthy toilet...

Yes it was impaction in our case with large smelly stools and no sign of straining or hard stools so it is worth getting this and other medical conditions ruled out. If you see my faecal impaction thread there are a number of posters who had medical reasons for accidents. Expect to be fobbed off especially if you dont show the classic symptoms for any of the common conditions.

We had considered aspergers instead because we were told it was a non medical problem. Actually we hadnt realized that just because autistic children are more predisposed to bowel problems it still needs a diagnosis and in our case treatment with movicol. Without the toileting problem the other characteristics became manageable in school and just a little quirky like many others in the family. Toileting issues seem far less acceptable once into year one and beyond to teachers, parents and other children so it needs sorting.

Just got back to this thread and want to clarify that I wasn't saying: don't get your daughter assessed. I was suggesting that before going down what I know is a long and arduous process of getting an Aspberger label, it's worth seeing if the problems can be sorted out at home with some concerted effort. Since we don't know the OP or the child in person, and we're not professionally qualified to diagnose, we can only give online suggestions. When you get a range of opinions (I've found) you naturally home in on the ones that seem most apt and that helps towards making a decision. If we're only allowed to come on and say "Get an assessment," that's pressure on the OP.

Hi

I was just wondering how the op was getting on. I have very similar issues with my 3.5yr old dd. She is one of twins and was potty trained at 18months initially and did very well until about 2.5yrs old. Which is when I potty trained her twin sister who has no issues beside what you would expect, the very occasional accident. DD1 however goes through 5-6 pairs of pants a day!! and it is driving me potty. She is also quite a quirky child and takes things literally but having worked with kids with learning difficulties I don't think she has any problems in that area. I just don't know what to do about here toileting!