What is "just a bit odd" and what is something more?

[SenseofEntitlement]

DD1 is 5 in March and in reception.

She wets herself maybe two or three days a week at school (sometimes twice or three times a day) and nearly every day at home. She has had the odd poo accident, but that is rare (once a month if that) She has a pull up at night. She has never really been dry to the point where I would go out without a change for her, although she had had times where she has been better than this. She also rarely tells us, although she never told us if her nappy needed changing either.

She is, however, very clever academically. I know I am her mum, so I would say that, but she is a fluent reader, she does workbooks at home for key stage one with no help, she is like a sponge for knowledge. She doesn't, however, show this at school (it is apparently a funny secret that she can read )

The school nurse is a bit concerned and has asked us to go to see her and to measure how much wee dd1 can do at once (how you do this with a wiggly four year old I have no idea) and to think if she seems to have any other issues in general.

Now, DD1 is odd. Up to now we have always just thought of her as endearingly eccentric. We say she is like a little blonde Wednesday Adams :)

What sort of things would ring alarm bells, as being beyond just being a bit odd, and into concerning?

yes - as dewe said - did you point out that was a bit rude?

To me she sounds like she could have Aspergers. She sounds very like my DS1 who has Aspergers. He's in year 1 now, frequently had toilet accidents in reception, still has the occasional one and will just pretend he hasn't wet himself and ignore requests to go to the loo. He is way ahead of his peers academically (reads books for 8/9/10 year olds with ease and does his maths lessons with Yr 3 where he is top of the class). I would look into getting her assessed if I were you.

Yes, a lot of her behaviour is what kids do, but as they get to 4/5/6 they pick up on social norms/are taught by parents and teachers and hopefully stop being so blatantly rude/inappropriate .
So.....what is "normal" at 2/3/4 becomes rather rude and socially unacceptable at 5/6/7. It's a blurry boundary. I now make sure my kids acknowledge friends, children and adults alike. Say hello, say goodbye etc. When DS was 3 I didn't insist but now he is 5 I do and his 3 year old sister is happy to follow suit.

I don't think the incident with the child in the street is at all abnormal for her age.

I think labels can be helpful when they're genuine, but would also say that if she is around her family most of the time, and you both have traits then she is bound to pick them up. I would give her some time at school to settle in and start 'copying' other people too. I do think she's a bit too young for a label yet. I would also try and build a friendship with 1 or 2 friends from school to observe how she is socially and to teach her to interract with kids her age. She is probably good with adults if she is more used to being around them.

MM - it's really hard to get a 'label'. They don't dish them out like candy. Especially for young kids.

It's very rare to get a 'label' in less than 12 months. Usually lots of different professionals have to observe the child in lots of settings over a period of at least 6 months.

So, if you wait until things are really bad, you're desperate and your child needs help, you will then have to wait at least another 12 months for a label you desperately wish she wouldn't qualify for.

Ok.

I have read this thread with interest and my initial thoughts were that she is displaying some ASD type traits (sensory issues, social communication etc)which as others have said can present quite differently in girls. The thing which struck me most is that your 'mummy-radar' is clearly telling you that something about your daughter is a bit different hence you posting. Furthermore you say your sister thinks she 'may' have issues which to me suggests is a polite way of saying yes there is something noticeable. Finally you give descriptions of quirky actions/behaviour and then try to justify them by saying this is normal for age etc. All of that coupled with the school nurse assessment-which must have been prompted by the class teacher would suggest further assessment would be a good idea at this point. Timescales and provision for services in community paediatrics mean that you face a lengthy wait. Good luck.

I think it's well worth doing a bit more research.

But also understand it's a difficult topic for your DH. I suspect he would need to feel in control of it all - not that someone was trying to force a redefinition of his child on him.

I found the key for me was keeping a sense of ownership of the problem - of professionals being players on my family's team, not vice versa. And certainly that if some wonderful quality of one's child doesn't fit a box on a questionnaire, then that's a problem with the questionnaire, not the child.

What I'm trying to say is that you and your DH may both be right.

I am intrigued by the dyspraxia thing... From little snippets of MN threads I have often wondered if my DSD is dyspraxic rather than 'just' dyslexic (in fact dyslexia tests in the past have been inconclusive, but the poor girl still can't read or write well at all age 13 :()

If anyone could tell me a bit more about it and its overlap with ASDs/dyslexia I would be really grateful. (sorry for hijack SoE)

It's very unusual to be 'just' dyslexic.

Most children also have some symptoms of ASD / ADHD / Dyspraxia.

Sometimes they're given multiple diagnoses, sometimes they're not.

This is because none of these conditions are defined properly. Which is why the dx isn't very helpful.

Read Is That My Child? for more info.......

I'd get her assessed. DS1 has been diagnosed with Asperger's and it's not that we wanted a label for him - it's more that you know what you're dealing with.

She sounds adorable!

IndigoBell - have you read this book Reading in the Brain? Brilliant.

Bonsoir - thanks. Looks interesting.

Can I ring the teacher do you think? FIL does the school run usually, so I don't see her very often. What do I say?

If you want to find out if she has Aspergers or Dyspraxia you need to go to your GP not school.......

Go to your GP and ask for a referral to a child development paed.

Can that be done through the school nurse?
I need to ring school anyway to tell them she won't be in when she has this school nurse appointment next week.

Depends where you live. Some schools can do referrals, some can't......

Before putting lots of energy into getting her assessed and labelled, which is an exhausting process, I think it's worth trying to find ways she can improve her behaviour. It may be that she is just a little bit odd and literal. the way she responds to other children seems well within the norm for her age.

My son went through a phase when people constantly sidled up to me and asked if he had Asperbergers because he was different. he was quite cold and stiff, hated being touched, fired rapid fire logical questions at adults and ignored children totally. I decided to treat it as a phase, and counter it at every moment I could. We invited lots of children to the house, so he had lots of practise being with them. I kept telling him how snuggly he was (even though he was stiff as a board) and told him how much his teddies loved being cuddled by him, even though he never picked them up. Bit by bit he thawed out. he didn't have Aspbergers. He still is quite a logical person who doesn't melt when you cuddle him, but he is incredibly affectionate and growing in popularity. he;s just a bit...different. There's room for all sorts before running for a label.

Have you chatted to her about the toilet accidents? Does she know when her body feels ready to go? Can you ask her to spot this a lot at home,to tell you she needs to go, and make a fuss of her for being so grown up about noticing it in plenty of time. This might help her to become more conscious of it, so that she recognises it even when she's hugely overstimulated in a school environment. Is there any reason she doesn't want to go at school? Unlocked loos, or being vulnerable in a public place? There could be plenty of rational reasons. She's only 5!

IndigoBell
Often kids with dyspraxia have toileting problems.

I think this has to go under things I really wish I'd known.

Oldest two were/are a nightmare and now looks likely they inherited my families dyslexia and dyspraxia issues. Oddly youngest was very straight forward and before this I'd begun thinking she'd have less problems though I may yet be proved very wrong. All I had suggested by HCP and others is somehow its been my fault twice with toileting training being difficult and some how we've got it right third time.

OP I would have though the meeting with the school nurse would be an excellent starting point to look at if there are physical problems like UTI or bowel obstructions ect or explore any issues with the school environment and to mention other behaviors to gauge if they are normal or part of a wider condition. I would also talk to her teacher and GP to get their views.

As for your DH - mine seems to think if he insists things are fine somehow that makes it true. It usually takes others to also say things are off for him to admit that he is actually worried and he is usually very pleased when we do get things looked into and ruled out. Perhaps yours is coming from a similar place?

RacingHeart - with all due respect, you don't know if your DS does or doesn't have Aspergers, because he's never been assessed for it. All you know is that you're not concerned by his behaviour - which isn't quite the same thing.

Oh no, please don't label your child. I really think people are too keen to put a label on children these days. Nothing that you have said rings alarm bells for me, I have to say. I have known children at 5 to still wet themselves occassionally, I have known children to hide and all of the other stuff you have mentioned. Normal children.

And also her academic achievements seem to be in line with what is expected of a 5/6 year old. Certainly nothing out of the ordinary.

So, she's a bit of a character. So what? That used to be considered a good thing, not an illness.

Malibu - its far, far, far easier to get a child the help they need if they have a 'label'

If you ignore all problems and keep your head in the sand, the child will still grow up, but is unlikely to achieve anywhere near what they would have if they'd had help when they needed it.

Getting a label doesn't mean a child's not normal! Nor does it mean they're ill! It just describes a cluster of symptoms, and gives everyone more clues as to what might help.

You wouldn't even know which kids have 'labels' and which don't. It's not printed on their foreheads! About 30% of kids in primary school will be on he SEN register.

Some of them will have labels and be getting help from professionals, most of them won't. most of their parents will believe their teachers / society that keep on telling them they're fine, that's normal, not everyone can be good at school.....

But approx 20% of kids will leave primary school 'below the expected standard'.....

Most teachers know very little about SN. Without a professional telling them how to help they just do the best they can - but won't be as good as if they'd had some advice from professionals.

But the child would know and would have to grow up with that label. Sure, if the severity of the condition warrants it, then fair enough. But on the evidence, I don't think this case does.

Malibu, wetting two or three times a day at 5? At home? IMO and E, that is out of the ordinary and worth sorting (as is happening). Then it would be daft to take a child of this age and only look at the toileting, it would be good practice to take an overview of how that child is doing. I must say that to me, nothing this lovely girl is doing sounds particularly unusual except the toileting, but suppose there is something that is different about the way she deals with the world? Would it be so terrible to find out about that a couple of years before formal education really kicks in? I work with children with SEN aged about 7/8; not weird, not labelled, just with some particular issue that needs some attention in the artificial environment of school, and part of me just really wants to hop in a time machine and give them some support aged 5

You don't even have to tell the child if you don't want to.

At what age do you think frequent wetting is a problem?

Sounds like you're advocating a 'wait and see' approach. Which is hugely damaging to any child that does have a problem.

You honestly don't get a label if your child does not have a problem.