If you were me and you had my dd, wwyd?

[worriedsilly]

Right - here is your life.

-DD is 7, Educational Psychologist report states superior abilities and on 96th centile for cognitive abilities.

• But writing is an issue, it is on 40th centile and is almost infecting her other work. She has decided she isn't any good at any lessons that involve writing .Her self esteem in this area is at a low.
• dd is as state school rated 'good' [it is prob best in the town] but she isn't wild about it. No actual close friends etc.
• dd has anxiety and worry issues and trouble mixing with peers. She's better with adults and older childen.

Would you

A) work with school and work to ensure true differentiation
B) work at home on a writing scheme to try nail the writing self esteem issues
C) look into possibility of a (generous) bursary to try access a nurturing independent that might tap into her abilities.
D) Throw more money at an occupational therapist to see if anything can be done to turn the writing around
E) Ask school and/or GPreferralsider referal to CAMHS for anxiety and OT for writing.

Please select the actions you think best

I would probably do all of them to be honest.

I would start with the school, and what you can do at home to build her self esteem.

Once you have started to work with the school you will be able to make a judgment about looking into changing her school, and an occupational therapist. You may find the school is doing/willing to do a lot to help, in which case I would probably be quite happy with that. Or they may not in which case yes I would consider changing school or looking to outside help.

I can't quite think how to phrase this but are you pushing DD too much? I mean this kindly. I'm just wondering if seeing an OT and having alot of focus put onto her writing/socialising skills might be causing her more anxiety IYSWIM.

No that is a good point oreocrumbs. I'll mull it over.

FWIW she adores all the attention of being looked at and tested. Day with Ed Psych was her idea of bliss and she was very positive about it. Wants to go again do more assessments etc.
So I don't think she will find the idea of an ot assessmestressfulull. I sort of think an ot might suggest some strengexercisesses and perhaps a pencil gripper - so nothing too invasive.

Certainly we do need to be careful she doesn't sense there is some mega issue where there is not. She can have writing on the 1st centile as long as she is happy!

It was dd who raised writing as an issue and cried loads over Christmas.

Thanks for your advice We probably will do all. Overkill?

Your DD sounds very like mine. The Ed Psyc reported her as extremely bright and able in lots of areas (top 4%) but writing and particularly spelling are in bottom 4%. She is dyslexic.
She is in all the bottom groups at school and well aware of it. Very frustrated too.

We've been advised that she should have as many aids available to her as possible (spell checkers, the use of a scribe, computer etc) so enable her to get her thoughts and ideas down more often and enable her produce some great pieces of work she can be proud of.
Lack confidence can really hold a child back.

Oh gosh LargeWinePlease. How old is your dd please?

It is that confidence erosion thing I am scared of. Once a person decides they can't do something they will prove it and I feel I need to nip this right in the bud with dd.

Are your school being supportive? Did they take up the Ed Psyc suggestions? I hope dd sees her work for the real achievement it is

Not overkill, its your DD and when the time comes I will do anything I need to for my DD's benefit .

I would also focus some attention on other things with her to generally improve her confidence, and to distract her slightly from focusing on her weak points (from her focusing on her weak points). It doesn't have to be based in education, a craft or something that she can explore new skills and grow in confidence from.

I know a lot of people say just let them find their own way, but I see no harm in offering her as much support as you can - particuarly as its DD who is upset by this.

She will be ok though, she has a lovely Mummy who is very supportive. Thats what makes the difference in life

She has recently been moved up in the various random after school clubs and we are develping a family boast wall of certificates or work we are proud of etc.

So hopefully all that will help her.She very sensibly tells me that no one can be good at everything, but it still gets her down.

Fancy even caring at 7

I hope we are doing ok with her and that we get support. Thank you for your advice

Worriedsilly - She is 7 too.
The thing that upsets me is that she started school a really confident, outgoing child and now I hear her telling people, she's "not very good at this" and "bottom of the class in that." I've only just got the report back so am meeting with the school to discuss it soon. I just hope they will pull the stops out for her.
She's been having extra help outside of school, for the last year, which has helped enormously. This extra help has brought her reading on a lot and the Therapist is now working with her on writing and spelling. She also enjoys the one to one attention. It's been worth every penny. I believe she's got more out of this one hour a week, than she has a whole 5 days at school!

I'd agree with oreocrumbs about focussing on other skills too. My DD enjoys her dancing and acting classes she does at the weekend, I think it's real release for her, as she has to work so hard in school to make such little progress.

Oh bless her. It's great she has the release of performing and also that targeted specialist help.Well done you.
We have no therapist nearby that is private - and no money[ but I would get a loan] - so I am having to hope for the NHS.

Such little shoulders for such heavy loads. Let me know how you get on with the school. Lets hope they talk big and act better for both our girls.

Mine d is defferent in that she hasn't actually go to work all that hard to pull the work out of the bag, although she does put extra effort in the subjects she enyoys. So this whole having to work at writing to improve is coming as a bit of a shock!

All I care about is her anxiety, then her happiness, then her achievement. However I think they are actually on a large loop and one can't happen without the other and so on. I think all these things need to be sorted for these troubled waters to calm.

I'm off to bed but maybe we'll catch up and see how the whole thing went.

My ds2 was like this at primary. He has always been good at everything , but his handwriting let him down...he just can't hold a pencil correctly, so writing has always been an issue and he used to hate it and the more he hated it the more he decided he couldn't do it. We tried grips and allsorts, but, at the end of the day , his teacher's just encouraged him to write more, without being too judgy on the grip thing. He can do joined up if pushed,but he has his own 'special' handwriting,which, if a bit strange is , is readable and relatively tidy. He's in secondary school now. He's in all the top sets, they don't seem to mind too much. Plus he can always do homework on the computer.

1. Definitely don't go private. By and large they are worse with SEN than state schools. (Although obviously this is a generalisation)

1. Go to your GP and ask for a referral to CAMHS or a paed wrt her anxiety. Does she have any other traits of Aspergers?

1. Believe she has dyslexia, and start researching everything there is to know about that.

1. Get her eyes tested by a behaviour optometrist

1. Make a meeting with the SENCO and teacher to find out what they are going to do to help her reach her potential.

What exactly is the problem with her writing?

Is it physical, ie it hurts for her to write, or she writes slowly, or she writes messily? (In which case an OT is sensible to see)

Or is it hard for her to get her ideas out of her head and onto paper? (In which case this is just a trait of dyslexia and Aspergers, and an OT can't help)

Or is the content of what she writes rubbish?

Or is it just her spelling?

Or is she just to anxious / scared of failure / perfectionist to write?

Or something else?

My dd was a bit like this, had a v. wise teacher who said she had so many ideas bursting to go yet not the writing ability to cope with it all. Lost confidence etc. She said play it down, it'll come. And it did. Writing beautifully now her hand has caught up with her brain. Maybe your dd is like this?

Hi worriedsilly

I can understand your DDs struggles with writing and anxiety are causing you a great deal of worry - but agree with many who post that it may be better to stay where you are and work with the school.

Several things occur - first I think you need to find out exactly what the problem is with writing. Is it mechanical (struggling to control pen/ pencil and form clear letters)? Is it the ability level (struggling to spell correctly and demonstrate good use of grammar)? or something else. The only way you can get to the bottom of that is to really talk with her teachers about what they think the difficulty might be.

I know when I was little my issue was that my ideas were flowing faster than I could write and therefore my handwriting was atrocious. I had to just learn to slow down and let my writing catch up with my thoughts.

In terms of the anxiety your DD is suffering. I'm not clear whether its general and not specific or linked into this writing problem. Regardless I think you need to keep an eye on this and try your best at home to become a source of support and wise council for your DD. Anxious people do much better in life if they have a strong support network - and working on being part of that network for your DD is no bad thing (as ultimately she will fly the nest, but it would be lovely if she could turn to you when she needs advice/ support).

Is it a physical issue with the writing, or something more than that, do you think?

When dd was 7, she really couldn't write much at all - couldn't form the letters etc and had absolutely no idea of spelling.

We worked a lot at home on supporting her handwriting first of all (when she was in yr 3), and it definitely helped. She's 9 (in yr 5) now and I would say her handwriting is perfectly acceptable both print and cursive.

We then moved on to doing phonics and spelling at home as that seemed to be the next 'block' and again that has definitely helped in that she can think of a plausible way to spell most words IYKWIM (so for example a sentence would probably have 3 - 4 spelling errors but it would be quite obvious what she is trying to say).

Very sadly for dd that doesn't mean that she can now put her thoughts down on paper. She still absolutely can't express what she is trying to say and write it down - maybe a couple of sentences in one go, but really not more.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is don't assume that things will definitely be fine 'when she gets pen control' or 'when she masters spelling' - because they may be for some children, but not for all.

We're now trying to decide what to do next. DD was referred to the Ed Psych by school, but the EP is now long term sick, so we don't really know where we are. TBH we're partly thinking that maybe its just a question of waiting until she goes to secondary school as our catchment school has an excellent reputation for helping children with dyslexic/dyspraxic type SLDs.

I personally think there is too much emphasis on actual handwriting at primary school. Huge sweeping statement but from my own narrow experience it is no sign of intelligence or success. My best friend from school had Aspergers and the most appalling cursive handwriting you can imagine when she went to our Grammar School. The emphasis from the school was to make it legible for assessment. It was never neat - just legible. Her brain worked far faster in ideas for handwriting. Computers changed her (and many people's lives).

On the other hand, I have taught adults and young people with Learning Difficulties who could barely read but had the most beautiful handwriting. Two ladies could copy whole books but couldn't read and comprehend what they had written.

Writing is a skill, and it's working on the skill to be legible and acceptable. If I were the OP I'd encourage your daughter to do projects on subjects she really enjoys and aim to make scrapbooks so that she is working on presentation, and see writing in that way. Also she will be practising spelling, punctuation etc and you could have a reward at the end.

Sorry I meant to add my best frined from school gained straight A's, went to Cambridge and gained a 1st there as well as phd.

I agree wrt the handwriting, Galaxymum - it depends I guess whether the problem is simply a physical one of writing, or whether it is a wider inability to put your thoughts down on paper.

If just about the physical writing I think most schools are happy for children to use computers for a lot of written tasks - certainly dd's school would be fine with that. (Sadly for her it doesn't help & in fact is even slower.)

Mind you I do see why dd gets frustrated when for example they have to copy out a text question for maths and it takes her 10 minutes to copy out the question and then less than 30 seconds to do it (and most of that is putting the working out as she can figure out the answer in her head).

Its very sad for her as now she says she 'hates maths' and is always in trouble for being too slow - yet actually doing the sums is trivial for her.

Well, I disagree. I think handwriting matters very much.

I'm struggling to find a link :) but I'm fairly sure there is a correlation between handwriting speed and GCSE marks.

From what I recall kids who write faster (generally by using cursive instead of print) get better marks.

Which makes sense. They've probably written more in every lesson they've ever had...... The cummultive effect of that will be huge.

And of course they're able to write more in the exam.

Even if they have a scribe for the exam, they'll have still missed out over the previous 10 years.

A correlation of course is just that. It does not mean every child with slow handwriting does badly in GCSEs. It does mean that it's likely if your child has slow handwriting they'll do worse in GCSEs.

Not a risk I'm keen to take......

I think it is helpful but not essential, if that makes sense. If you are severely dyspraxic and physically can't write at any meaningful speed, it doesn't mean you can't get a good education.

Certainly my university boyfriend who has a very good oxbridge maths degree and a six figure salary would fall into that category. TBH if you knew him you'd never realise that he can hardly write, you'd imagine he was just slightly irritatingly geeky & technology fixated (well these days not even that since so many people use ipads & the like). Yet when he was 9 - 10 he was considered marginal for mainstream education because of his dyspraxia.

Not Just a matter of neatness

Bad handwriting isn?t just hard to read - it can limit exam success by as much as 40 per cent

Pupils with bad handwriting are less likely to do well in written tests and composition exercises than their neater classmates.

When pupils can write fluently, the process does not interfere with other mental processes. But if they struggle, they have to devote large amounts of memory to the task, leaving them with less capacity for generating ideas, selecting vocabulary or planning what to write.

I see exactly what you're saying, Indigo - but if someone can touch type quickly and easily and is allowed to do so in exams then in practice that is equivalent to 'writing fluently', surely?

on the neat handwriting bit: yes, it does make a difference when marking handwritten exams. The examiners almost certainly don't want it to, but they can't help being more receptive to the flow of a sentence if they can read it fluently.

And on the OP's question, you missed out

1. Feck the lot of them and home educate.

My 7 year old has not the slightest idea how she compares with other children. Streets ahead in some areas, lagging well behind in others. The lagging bits develop at her own pace and without anxiety. And the lack of anxiety makes it much easier to learn.

HE of course isn't the answer for everyone, but it is certainly a really good lifestyle for me and mine.

I think that someone would miss out of years of writing and taking notes during class and at home and on the bus......

I think that over their 11 years at school they will have written less words, and would therefore be disadvantaged.

I can touch type faster than I write, but still often prefer to do first draft of important docs by hand...... I think differently when typing vs writing by hand.

I would put everything into improving my child's handwriting before opting for typing. Which I have done. It was recommended that my DS type, but I wasn't keen, and now in Y6 his handwriting is no longer the worst in the class.......

Not to mention how keen school was for DD to type. Which I totally refused to let happen....... Her handwriting is fine too now.

If I had failed, and if DS could still not write by Y7, then I would have given in and let him type. However I didn't fail :)

Also, a significant proportion of people who struggle with handwriting will also struggle with typing. Because both tasks require good fine motor skills.

DS would never have been able to learn to touch type properly because he can't control his fingers individually. He would only have even been a 2 fingered typist - which can be fast, but can't be automatic, like writing or touch typing is.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/1393097-School-are-talking-about-possible-dyslexia-anyone-around-to-chat

What about something like Kumon, or a tutoring programme? Could someone come and tutor her at home for a few hours a week?