If you were me and you had my dd, wwyd?

[worriedsilly]

Right - here is your life.

-DD is 7, Educational Psychologist report states superior abilities and on 96th centile for cognitive abilities.

• But writing is an issue, it is on 40th centile and is almost infecting her other work. She has decided she isn't any good at any lessons that involve writing .Her self esteem in this area is at a low.
• dd is as state school rated 'good' [it is prob best in the town] but she isn't wild about it. No actual close friends etc.
• dd has anxiety and worry issues and trouble mixing with peers. She's better with adults and older childen.

Would you

A) work with school and work to ensure true differentiation
B) work at home on a writing scheme to try nail the writing self esteem issues
C) look into possibility of a (generous) bursary to try access a nurturing independent that might tap into her abilities.
D) Throw more money at an occupational therapist to see if anything can be done to turn the writing around
E) Ask school and/or GPreferralsider referal to CAMHS for anxiety and OT for writing.

Please select the actions you think best

The 40th centile is not really that bad, it just looks quite low in comparison to her cognitive score. Not everything develops at the same speed, and the hand writing can easily still come along especially if she is only 7. Of course do what you feel you need to do to support her, and make her feel less anxious, but is a shame if she is being made to feel her handwriting is 'bad' (at the 40th%ile this means a lot of children have even lower skill th an she does). Some of other ways of expressing her ideas that people have suggested seem good so that she can still express her thoughts.

Ooo lots of replies - thank you so much!

I have about 20 mins before a soggy school run so will read but perhaps not reply. It's so great lookin gat threads I am on and seeing replies. Thank you again!

You say that your DD likes attention, if you can afford it maybe a tutor after school for an hour or two a week might be worth a try before you go down the more formal routes.

If you can find the right person you may find that one to one "special" lessons might help to improve her writing.

ime schools don't place as much emphasis on the formation of letters as they did when I was at primary and some children do slip thorugh the net.

Hello. Mega post alert!!

To try answer some of your questions - it looks most like a physical dificulty with writing. She wriggles herself from sitting to kneeling to standing and back. She also says her arm aches and her pen hold is ok but clumsy and not a true tripod.
She actually has fairly imaginative and usefull ideas and is refining and learning that all the time, so she has good things to write. I feel she probably cuts down what she wants to say to avoid the dreaded writing. Her spelling in tests is perfect but she cannot apply it to writing sentences. Now Why Is That

Indigo - we are hunting down a behavioural optometrist but blimey they are hard to come by in my neck of the woods. Plus I have financial dificulties - in that I have no finances. Interesting what you day about believe she has dyslexia. What makes you say that? Because it is likely or because the things that help with dyslexia might help her too?
She has sensible and fairly good ideas about what she wants to write, but the process of writing seems to physically hard and slow for her. If that makes sense?

DO you think school et. al. will think I am insane if I take this bright, intelligent and (seemingly/on the face of it) happy child in to school and ask for a sence and CAMHS and all the nine yards??
Will you come to the meeting with me please?

Takver - I'm sorry to hear of your own troubles. I wonder if you could contemplate a private assessment for your child? I know how it is, I have just taken a loan for the Ed Psych and will need to extend it if OT is required. However I tell myself that people get loans for cars and holidays and therefore just get on with it.
Is the sickness not being covered by anyone? Terrible!

Pastsellbydate - thank you for your kind words. It is very frustrating as I am not sure if her anxiety is writing only or a general state of being, either!! I bloody wish I did though. It would make the path I need to take much clearer!

Ponyprincess - you are right there is nothing actually crashingly wrong with her writing and perhaps many children in the class would love to be 40th centile. The trouble I have is that DD has herself decided she can't do literacy and her self esteem in all subjectsthat use writing is dropping like a stone. Plus it is clearly out of synch and that is just odd.

I am very worried about the idea of her deciding she can't do a subject. I feel that anyone who decides this may well go ahead and prove themselves right. It's such a sad thought that at 7 a little girl has already judged herself inferior in anything. I am worried she may go one to decide she isn't good at numeracy, and at friends, or at learning, or playing, or being nice or being pretty and so on and so on. Adults with low self esteem often trace it back to childhood and to me, self esteem is one essential in life. A lack of it can lead to the most awful life tangles.

As to the very interesting debate about the actual importance of writing - personally I am probably of the opinion it does matter and that despite technology, writing isn't going away.
However the cleverest surgeons I know have some of the worst writing imaginable. SO I personally do not see it as a measure of success. I guess it is a tool, like speece, and tone of voice, and body language.

My main take is that at this time it is the thing dd feels bad about. I want to help her so much.

Oh and lifesalongsong - thank you. I hadn't actually considered a tutor. My main worry is that dd loves to be home, floating about and playing with random small toys. I sort of feel bad about intruding on that time. I wondered about assuming th erole of 'tutor' myself in regards to handwriting and following a sensible programe an OT would recommend.

It hadn't occured to me to get a tutor for more expansive and 'value added' learning. Hmmmm.

SO much to think about. When does my brain go quiet?
I am torn between pushing 'the services' to try get to the root cause of her anxiety or of her handwriting.

I feel I am over reacting and not reacting enough. I feel if I shout and stomp for assessments I will feel I have made it worse and put her in the spotlight.
If I don't and she has so much as a bad day at school, I will curse that I didn't support her and fight her good cause.

Jeeez.

Thank you for the opinions about trying to manufacture a state school opt out. Also regardign home ed [there just isn't the money for me not to work and I jsut couldn't make it work with my hours].

I am thinking. Thank you for all your posts - I am just going to read them all again.

1. If you lived anywhere near me, I would come to your meeting :) (But doesn't sound like you do)

1. Go the 'whole 9 yards'. Ask either school or your GP for a referral to an OT and CAMHS (or even a paed). (Not sure if school can refer you, depends which county you're in)

1. Talk to school, they must have seen other OT reports and have some ideas.

The fact that she it hurts and she can't sit still gives us lots of clues.

A Move N Sit Cushion may help with her posture and her being unable to stay seated. Both my DSs need one.

You could buy a pack of assorted Pencil Grips and see if any of them help.

Physically there are 3 things that affect handwriting:

• Poor fine motor skills
• Poor shoulder strength
• Weak tummy muscles (unable to sit properly)

If you think she has weak shoulders then do wall press ups every night.

Similarly if her tummy muscles are very weak and she can't sit up, then you need the move n sit cushion, and do tummy exercises (sit ups etc)

For weak fingers you need play doh, pegs, and all those other things which build finger strength.

For vision problems dot-to-dots and word searches are a good place to start....

Message me if you want :)

Is your daughter physically active, confident with climbing etc, can she ride a bike and/or swim?

With DS1 he had retained reflexes which made him less physically confident and coordinated and did affect his handwriting. An OT did really help with that.

Sometimes I would scribe for him his YR3 homework for him if he was struggling because getting a good mark for his content did a lot for his confidence.

Cutting with scissors, threading beads, making things with lego or hama beads all help with fine motor control and hand strength.

Does she do anything social after school Rainbows/Brownies? I wonder if something like a drama club might help with her confidence. It may be struggle to make friends in school if you are feeling ambivalent about school because you feel you aren't doing very well anyway.

My son was physically very active, swam like a fish, rode a bike without stabilizers age three, played golf to a high standard from the age of 7 and started to write in Y6.

I would suggest an OT would be the best place to start.

I am just surprised that people are suggesting she needs OT when her writing is basically about average for her age. I agree with posters who suggest that if it is a confidence issue better to take the focus of the writing and do other activities to boost her confidence and lessen her worry about the writing.

We are suggesting she needs OT because her DD says her arm aches and she wriggles the whole time. Very clear signs that there is a physical problem.

If it hurts to write how do you concentrate on writing without correcting the cause of the pain

Hello Thanks you for even more input and ideas.

IndigoBell - thanks! Isn't it odd how I'd go with a friend and kick ass with notes and targets and probing questions. Comes to my own and I'm a wibbling wreck.

We have a dr appt tomorrow, I'm still not actually sure what it is I am going to say. However today we went to a private OT enterprise where the OT asked us questions and she felt a sensory processing issue might be going on. What she said and described made lots of sense - what I can't do is actually afford the assessment and certainly not the treatment! So perhaps that is what I need to tell the G.P.

Am awaiting to hear from school. Hoping to hear this week. I'll pick their brains on the whole shebang.

I once tried to do the wheelbarrow walk with her and she fell on her face, but she does loads of gym and ballet, swimming and bike riding so hopefully she will gather strength.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude - yes to all those things. She can ride a bike - I think that is because she had a balance bike from the get go and therefore achieved her balance from about 3. She only got the physical strength to pedal at about 6. Her swimming strokes are pretty good but again, she works like billy and just sinks.
So sounds similar to your son mrz - does he have some similar issue if you don't mind me asking? Did OT help?

ponyprincess - thanks and yes there is definately a need to address the underlying tendency to be anxious about things that others may shake off. I will try and have a 2 pronged approach for sure.

So, anyone feel like funding a few thousand of psychologist input and OT??

Wall Presses: Stand a short distance away from the wall. Place hands flat at
shoulder height on the wall. Lean toward the wall, keeping feet in place. Stop
just before your nose touches the wall. Hold for 10 seconds, see how many
you can do - try 10 at first and then see if you can do 20!
Statues: Stand as still as a statue, get a helper to try and move you from your
position. Take it in turns and get the statue to move. Sit facing ? on a chair
and get ? to hold your thumbs with his arms out in front of him and elbows
slightly bent. One of you should be like a statue and see if you can move the
other?s arms and cause him to wobble.
Chair Presses: Whilst seated, putting hands on the side of the char and
pushing to lift you up off the chair. Hold for 5 seconds.

Animal walks:
Bear Walks: Walking on all fours with legs as straight a possible, bottom in the
air
Crab walk: move from flat on you back, lift arms over head and push against
the floor till you body is up in the air and you look like a crab. (Body, head and
neck parallel to floor).
Walrus walk: lie on stomach on the floor and push body weight onto straight
arms, keeping legs straight and on the floor. See if you can move forward
?walking on your hands? with legs dragging behind you.

Just to say round here CAMHs probably wouldn't accept this as a referral , or if they did he wait would be so long shed never benefit. We do have drop in psychology access though that would asess her and put in of help strategies.

I also agree that with writing that is basically age appropriate the nhs may not be very interested.

My ds had awful handwriting and poor in motor skills at primary. It help him up. A writing slope , fat pencil grip and wedge seat helped. Time has sort of resolved things buthe still writes like spider on acid at 16 ( buy is predicted great grades)

I don't think they will be interested either - even though it seems to be affecting her esteem and a huge driver to her anxiety. But of course I won't know that until I try.

I think the NHS should be interested in her anxiety.

I think the LEA and school should be interested with writing skills inconsistent with her other skills.

After that I have no idea.

mrz - thank you, we will get cracking on those. Might help my bingo wongs to boot

I had a referral in similar circumstances, but the GP was pushing me to say DS has self esteem issues and as soon as I admitted it he was happy to refer....

In DS's case his reading is excellent (and generally very very bright), but also has painful writing and his writing is poor from both a formation and content point of view. I originally went to the GP with worries about dyspraxia. He referred (as above) to a paediatrician, who referred on to physio (he has poor shoulder stability - discharged with exercises) and OT (though only to get a pack of exercises to try - don't actually get to see an actual person). Also she arranged for a specialist teacher to come into school.

We have also gone to a private Behaviour Optometrist and are doing Vision Therapy.

School is sympathetic, but aren't doing much yet - still wating on the recommendations from the specialist teacher who observed him in school. It was them who raised concerns in the first place about the gap between writing and everything else, but it was up to me to go through the GP to get a referral.

Ah so pretty similar situation then mrsbaffled. I'm glad you got your referral although I'm not wildly impressed with how the actual treatment package sounds? Are you? Have any of the programmes been usefull? How was it being the main driver to the treatment? I'd much rather take dd somewhere to have treatment than be the one who says 'treatment time' if you see what I mean.

Not treatment exactky, but the excercises and stuff.

must must must find a behaviour optometrist - but serioiusly how do I find the $$££$$ for all this [panic]

We've only just started TBH. The VT isn't cheap, but I am really hopeful that it will help. It starts with a lot of gross motor exercises (like the bear walk mrz mentioned above) and exercise to suppress retained reflexes before moving onto the specific tracking problem. It just seems to cover most bases. I really hope it works!! We go into the office once a fortnight, then have to do 20 mins a night at home most nights. DS doesn't mind doing it, which is good as he HATES doing homework in general. The VT is meant to be quite fun - he's enjoying skipping and commando crawling. I have turned it into a game, so I pretend to shoot him with his Nerf gun if he sticks his bum in the air LOL! Also DS is quite a perfectionist and likes to follow rules so I can hide behind the BO and say he HAS to do it!

DS is improving in all areas (bless him, gone up a sublevel since his KS1 SATS - he's yr 3 now), so isn't stagnant, but writing is much worse than you would hope given his general level of intelligence.

I am arranging for a close friend to do some letter formation work with him too. She works at the school and will work with SENCO along the OT guidelines. I am lucky she will do this for £0 :)

I really want to get the specialist teacher report back to see if she thinks he has a dyslexic problem too (his spelling in apalling). I expect we will need to do a spelling program with him. SENCO has said they could do this at school as we are doing so much stuff already with him at home.

OT disappoints me - I would love to see an actual person! And I have been doing a lot of the stuff it recommends anyway. Ho hum! I have sent in a slope for school and pen grips etc too.

Oooo come and hold my hand

Have basically had my mum tell me that I was the same at school and I was ok and that dc is worried about me worrying about her.

Message I got loud and clear was I am imagining the problem or making it worse. She stormed off in end when I said I felt shouted at. Apparently there is no point talking to me
I think there is plenty of point talking to me if I am spoken to like someone who has worries and none of the answers.

Feeling most vulnerable and wobbly. If she's right then I made a mistake - it happens!

B), launch a little programme of extra writing at home, say 5-10 mins/day. I have only read OP's comments, but I'd just work on writing confidence & wait for her to mature in the other areas.

I was a late bloomer myself and see no general harm in it.
I think a lot of the rest (possible actions) sounds OTT.

That's a great post on back of what I just wrote.

Here's a hand.

Don't let your Mum upset you.

Ignoring a problem won't make it go away - normally it makes it worse.

(Puts my logic hat on :) )

There are 4 possible scenarios:

1. She has a problem - and you do nothing
2. She has a problem - and you do your best to address it
3. She doesn't have a problem - and you do nothing
4. She doesn't have a problem - and you worry and try to address it

You can't control whether or not she has a problem, you can only control whether or not you address it.

So there are only 2 mistakes you can make - 1. or 4.

I'd far, far rather try to address something that wasn't there (4.), then fail my child through inaction (1.).

Thanks IndigoBell.

I guess in her defence she is concerned we may do damage by making anxiety and problems where are there are none.

But seriously, why would we do that? I haven't the energy to make tea, let alone make war!

Goooood. God God God God could just do without it.

In some ways I wonder if an acknowledgement that she is having some specific - addressable - problems with writing might be better for her anxiety than struggling on as she is.

Very fortunately although my dd finds writing hard she isn't anxious about it in the wider sense, although sometimes very stressed by particular tasks. I think helped by the fact that she is a good reader & also confident in speaking which gets her praise in class.

We've also always really stressed the fact that everyone finds something hard, no-one is good at everything, and also talked about adult friends/relatives who have had similar difficulties, helpfully all of whom are happy & successful!

But a close friend in her year is a struggling reader, only just starting to read now in yr 5. I know from her parents that a formal dx of dyslexia & vision problems really helped her confidence enormously, especially as the report confirmed her high general intelligence. I think that it helped her realise that she wasn't 'stupid' for not being able to read, she has a specific problem that can be addressed in various concrete ways (in her case particular lighting conditions, tinted glasses etc).

I am only pointing out that a score of 40th %ile is not in itself a 'problem', and handwriting is a motor skill so it is not that strange that it might be at a different level than her cognitive skills.

I am not suggesting that a problem be ignored.