Help needed - Private school interferring beyond remit?

[JayTay]

Hi, I'm new to these boards but get the impression you ladies are pretty good with this kind of thing & I really need some advice.

Looooong story short(ish) ex & I split up, it got really nasty, I had him arrested & got various orders against him, in retaliation he told SS I was neglecting & abusing DD (5), SS put her on the Child Protection Plan, then removed her after a couple of months stating they had no concerns whatsoever about me, but did about him. He applied for a contact order, was given 2 hours a week, reviewed every 6 weeks 3 times now, going to trial in spring. SS doing report, CRAPCASS guardian speaking to DD, she's been referred to CAHMS, she hates him & this forced court ordered contact is seriously distressing her.

Anyway, the problem I have is the school. They wrote & wrote & wrote to SS demanding their further involvement & that DD be put back on the CPP. I complained to the head of the junior school. SS in the end just ignored them telling ex & I to distance them from all of this. Ex ignored them & has been having constant weekly meetings with them. I complained to the head again. On the strength of his lies & with SS ignoring the school they then wrote to my solicitor, who wrote back saying this was none of their business but giving them an outline of the court orders re contact. I told them it was out of order & complained again. School then wrote to the District Judge demanding they be present at all future hearings & that their opinion be taken into account. Ex knew, I didn't till the judge said in the hearing! I confronted the head & she was very "so what? yes and?" about it. I complained to the governors about it & had a rubbish response. I replied saying it wasn't good enough & I would push this further if they don't sort it at this level.

Head of the senior school has now called me in to discuss this monday morning & I want to be prepared. I know private schools are not bound by the same rules & regs as state schools but surely this is absolutely unacceptable & out off their remit? Do they have any right to damand their involvement like this at the court? Do they have any right to an opinion on contact? Help!

TIA!

Maybe the school has legitimate concerns? It is their duty to follow up and to make sure that other agencies are acknowledging their concerns, and either giving the OK or taking action. If the school hears nothing from social services, they really do have to keep badgering them.

Blimey I wouldn't have thought so. They do have a duty to protect your DD, and a need to be informed (I guess by a neutral party??) of the status of contact orders, etc - and I guess if Ex is paying the fees then he can demand copies of reports, letters, etc - but more than that I cannot see.

What was the judge's reaction? Can the court not write and confirm the status and tell them to butt out? I would imagine their "justification" for wanting SS involved is that they have no means of knowing whether they should believe you or Ex.

OK, if someone, anyone, was making allegations to me, in my work capacity (running various projects with young people) , I would be OBLIGED to pass it on to SS until such a time as i was officially notified that the person making the allegations was lying and that SS or a court gave some authority to the fact that there was no weight in the claims.

I would guess it is not personal against you, but simply them following thier Child protection policy in the face of your ex's allegations. They would probably welcome a court ruling as then they can stiop investigating / reporting every allegation your menace of an ex makes.

I would ask them what their process and protocol is, and why they have taken the actions they have taken.

They should have their child protection policy on their website.

Agree it is probably part of their safeguarding policy. I'm not aware the basic duty of care differs from one type of school to another. If you seem less than cooperative and ex is voicing issues they have little option but to follow it up. Could also be that dd is confused and they feel they need to understand the situation in order to support her.

I agree with LIZ

I am actually more shocked that SS has refused to involve the school than anything else. I am impressed that the school has taken it's obligations so seriously. They obviously have information to provide which will inform the safeguarding process and they should be listened to (as should any party who has relevant informtion to share). Schools have statutory obligations to share information when there are concerns for a child.

Time and time again when things go horribly wrong in child protection/ safeguarding cases the issue of different agencies failing to share all relevant information amongst each other gets highlighted as an issue. It seems this is what the school is addressing. The fact that it's private is irrelevant.

If your ex is having weekly meetings with the school (did I read that right???) and you're refusing to have anything to do with them then they can only really deal with the information he is providing and presumably their own observations.

The school spends large amounts of time in loco parentis and I don't see how you think it is reasonable to exclude them from this situation even from a very basic point of view of being able to look out for your child properly.

Oh - I am so glad I found this thread - OP are you me? Seriously, though, there are so many similarities and it is certainly the most frustrating aspect of the separation for me. My STBX DH was always disinterested in school related matters. I would have to bribe him to do the occasional pick-up. Infact, he was disinterested in all things relating to children. But now that we are no longer together, well .. who would have thought? He has been in touch with the key members of staff more frequently than I have despite the fact that I am looking after DC single-handedly and he is no longer living here/ seeing DC. The Head Mistress has become a real confidante eager for the next installment of malicious crap. Like a good author, he keeps it coming. SS thoroughly investigated, then identified his allegations as being malicious but hey, the school doesn't care, they have their own need to address "welfare concerns". I can clearly separate which questions/comments are genuinely motivated by the latter and which are directly based on the shit-drip-feed.

It is most hilarious when they do the good cop-bad cop or say things to provoke a reaction - most recent comment was in relation to a shite handmade present from DH "Do you realise that you were married to a very talented man" .. why would such comments be necessary, how can it be justified by the nay-sayers on here. The school KNOW that he beat DS to a pulp which is why the marriage ended. They know about the emotional abuse we have suffered for years, the road-rage, racist taunts during days out.

There is a real need for clear guidelines as to what role a school should be playing in a situation that is hardly unlikely to be a one-off. It is wrong for a guy with a sexy Eurotrash accent to come along and do his little-boy lost act and to be believed by women whom he spoke of so mysogynistically during the marriage - "old", "ugly", "menopausal". Now, of course, its all about them being right, clever, authoritative, needing to put their wayward, younger ex-wife in her place. It is a crap situation, they are so naive not to understand that there are ulterior motives as to why he is flattering their egos

Maybe I didn't explain it correctly. SS DID get involved, they put DD on the Child Protection Plan on the strength of my ex's complaints. They thoroughly investigated us & I cooperated fully. They found no concerns whatsoever, removed her from the plan, stated they see no reason whatsoever for any further investigation as far as I go but have more concerns over my ex, hence only recommending 2hrs a week, they have done 2 section 7 reports, a section 47 report & are now doing yet another report for the contact trial. They have told everyone in no uncertain terms that they have no reason whatsoever to think I'm anything other than a good, caring mother with my child's best interests at heart, that she's very well loved, cared for & provided for. They told the school to back off but they ignored them & kept writing & writing & writing. There are NO concerns.

DD is in excellent health, doing very, very well educationally (above average in all subjects, top of the class in art, ICT & spanish, reading age of 9.5 at 5 years old) she's a "joy to teach" according to her form teacher & extremely well behaved, to the extent that she won the year trophy at the end of last year & the other day was given the responsible job of looking after a new girl visiting for the day & showing her round, being her friend & being responsible for her. She's popular, never in trouble or arguments or fights, she's CLEARLY not abused or neglected in any way. Where she's suffering is at home having nightmares about her 'father', wetting herself before contact, crying till midnight from "Daddy being mean & a liar" and constantly wishing him dead.

However the school keep writing & writing demanding the case be reopened, SS are ignoring them because they know there's no reason to & that everything is fine. I'm still in touch with them constantly for the trial report.

It's like the whole world is saying the sky is blue but then my ex tells them actually it's green, they are trying to convince the rest of the world it's green without actually looking up for themselves.

And my question wasn't about them writing to SS, I'm not concerned about that as SS are on my side. It's that she wrote to the district judge to demand to be involved in the private family court proceedings & that her opinion be taken into account re contact. Can she do THAT?

What is the ex saying to the school? Do you have a written copy of SS report saying the concerns are about HIM? I think you need to point this out to the school.

If the school's behavior is making you & your child feel upset/scared/intimidated then you need to point this out to them. Especially if Dad's constant presence at school is upsetting the child then they need to be told Dad's contact has been restricted for a reason. You also need to tell them that it is not for them to override the opinions of Social Services and the courts.

Are you continuing to follow ALL reccomendations in the Child Protection Plan? Get out the reports and do a quick double check over the weekend so that you can reassure the HT on Monday. (there should be stuff in there re the ex's responsibilities too!) If you are then the SS file will stay closed, regardless of anyones random views.

Family courts are closed courts. Even Grand/God parents are not allowed into hearings. However non-participants can submit written reports for evidence to support either side if you ask the court.

If he does pay the fees then I'm afraid in your shoes I'd place my child in a state school where he won't have this bargaining chip with school & the power balance in the schools eyes will be more equal. As the sole carer you HAVE to feel that YOUR relationship with the school is one that benefits your child. Just the day to day stuff like homework and the odd bout of flu will become problematic if you feel you can't trust them.

I'm concerned that he's violating the contact order via the school.

Ask your lawyer about obtaining a prohibited steps order. My ex has no "school interference" rights. Women's aid can also be very helpful when all else seem to be failing you re controlling men. I'm worried if your child falls sick he'll be silly re medical care too. The last thing you need is a pratt interfering at a hospital bed!

Parental responsibility can be restricted to protect children when needed via the courts. Don't be scared to phone the social worker if YOU feel the ex's behavior with the school is upsetting the child - they can have words with the school if they feel it's needed.

Who pays the school fees? Stereotypically the man is the higher earner so they may be trying to keep him onside due to this. If this aspect of the split resolved? If YOU are the sole payer of the fees you need to let them know - it may result n a swift atttude change ; )

Conversations you need to have asap .

1. Social services. (Ring them!) Yes the file is closed but you are feling harrassed and you need ther help for it to stop.

1. Women's aid - these people CAN help.

1. The school - You are sole carer yet no longer feel safe with them, this is impacting your child's welfare & they need to know this (it's damn good reason to place her in a different school if you need to later).

Do point out to the school that SS had issues with DAD - not you! If it's in black and white ensure they have a copy of the report.

1. GP - Ask the GP to organise some family therapy sessions for you and your child to help the two of you get through a REALLY stressful time. That cahms referral needs to become URGENT. Consider going private if you have to.

Thank you bochead.

Ex has never paid for so much as a pencil for that little girl, not a single penny & the school are well aware of that.

I have a non mol, occupation order & form of undertaking against him as he's a nasty evil violent rapist, which DD has witnessed.

He hangs around at the school & at the sports centre when DD has swimming waiting for me because he knows it scares me, and the school encourage him!

I even had a polygraph test to prove I wasn't lying (which proves that he is) for use with my family & on the school's accusations I showed them the results out of despiration but they still say "he has PR, therefore my concerns are invalid & he should have 50%." Erm, DD remembers what he did to me regularly, she's scared of him & doesn't want to see him ever, even 2 hrs a week is far too much & causing her huge distress. "It's a basic human right! Every child has the right to both parents!" Yes but that's also a basic human right according to article 12 of the convention of the rights of the child that she be entitled to an opinion & that it be respected, and her opinion is that she hates the evil SOB & wants nothing to do with him. "Right well I'm going to write to the court about it then!" FFS!!!!!!

I do understand that they have a duty of care, but it's been investigated & there are no worries whatsoever. Just leave us alone! You're seriously stressing us both out, making our lives a living hell & helping my ex further abuse & control us, and THIS IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS!!! UGH! I just want her to leave me alone. I will have to remove DD from the school, I don't think I have much choice anymore. Which is a shame as it's an outstanding school (in every other way!) and DD is very happy there. :(

Right then if you have a non-mol order then it's a trip to the police station.

Show the police the non-mol order and ask them to visit the HT in uniform. He's using the school to continue to harrass and control. The school are FAILING to protect the welfare of a vulnerable child here and this needs to e pointed out to them. In a state school they'd be putting their jobs on the line encouraging him like this.

Involving the police means it will be officially logged and will be evidence for family court if you need it further down the line. The school in ignoring your wishes in a DV case are most definately overstepping the mark (- those orders aren't given out without damn good cause!)

It also shows SS you are doing what you should to keep your child safe (necessary cos sadly kids go into care when it's felt Mums can't protect them from violent arses).

In your shoes I'd honestly be changing my daughter's school if a visit to the school from the boys in blue doesn't make a difference. It will though, don't fret.

Pop to the police station tomorrow morning so that it's set up for them to visit school asap next week.

The prohibited steps order I have for the ex runs till rug rat is 18 and involves an auto 3 months custodial sentence if he breaks it. Something to ask your legal advisor/Women's aid about. It's been 6 years since I got mine so I'm not up to date on all the criteria needed anymore (stuff changes). Women's aid are amazing at helping with situations like this so do contact them.

bochead - could I ask what kind of aid WA were able to offer? I have had no luck with them, despite trying - they just say "oh you need to phone this other number" and so it goes on.. I have read on here about how good they can be and I intend to try the latest number next week in the hope that something positive will come of it.

I'll give WA a call next week. They were pretty good with advice re splitting up with him initially, and calling the police is a great idea, though they've been pretty useless up to now wih all this.

Also I found a book called Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft absolutely life changing.

I really need to find the actual laws that govern schools in this regard. I'll look into family court being private & have a meeting with my solicitor Monday before I see the head so will ask her, but frankly I think I'd be better off researching it myself IYSWIM.

Could you not just remove her from the school?It is a private school-you are paying the fees.Your relationship with them is poor-I would just change schools either to another fee paying school or to the best available state school.

Well yes that's the next step. Few problems though, once the divorce is through & the house sold we'll be moving, probably out of the area so she'll change school then anyway & I can't switch now & then again in 6 months or a year or whatever when we move. Secondly ex will fight it, he will try to keep her there & do whatever he can to contest it or get a prohibitive steps order or something. Thirdly her fees are covered by an inheritance she was left & it will cause complications there, not massive, but headaches I don't need really at the moment... let me get the first 10 out the way first before I deal with that!

Also academically they are an amazing school, she is happy there & I would be too if they just backed off & stopped forcing a nonexistant issue.

I found WA rubbish to, it depends on area...I have been waiting for trauma counselling and told in new year...to get letter last week it is another 6 months wait!

They have a duty to report even if they know your ex is a lying pig! It's CP rules. I also wonder if they see difference with dd esp after visits or anxiety cause of visit with dad coming up?

You ex is possibly emotionally abusing your dd or trying to turn dd against you. If she witnessed rape she is possibly suffering with huge anxiety and possible PTSD. Even though it was her not raped...if you as you are her mum the person she loves most in life...it might as well as been her.

Did you go to police over the rape? What happened? Sorry but need to ask as feel this is BIG issue for dd also and may need very careful addressing...child psychologists....also NSPCC in some branches have counselling for children who have seen this type of abuse. WA in my area only counsel children that seen physical abuse to mum.

If your ex got 'criminal record' for rape you would be in good position to get PR removed and break away completely from the psycho.

As Bochead says though keep reporting ex when he shows up and should not be their....it all adds up these reports for future.

Just another Q OP is your dd showing signs of anxiety or depression?
Could you take her to GP or ask SS to supply counselling for the trauma?

Again this will help dd and reassure school you are doing everything possible to help dd and also show courts the effects this has had on dd.

Is the contact unsupervised? I would be very worried if it is and the monster is a rapist! Sorry OP but this niggling in my brain.

She has shown axiety at home, but nothing at school. She won't talk to anyone but me, which puts me in a very difficult position when trying to prove it. She's been to the GP who have diagnosed "anxiety related palpitations due to the stress of seeing her father" & are referring her to CAMHS though I'm yet to hear back from that, have to chase it this week. She has wet herself which she's not done sine 2.5years old. She's having nightmares, has been hitting me when I've said I can't keep her home from contact, giving me a lovely black eye which the school saw a couple of months ago. She has drawn pictures saying I'm going to kill you & has talked about bad voices in her head telling her to do bad things. She's not been eating or sleeping as well as she used to & will cry till as late as midnight after seeing her dad.

At school she's said she doesn't want to see him but the school have told her basically tough luck you have to, so she won't talk to them again feeling it futile & saying she's "given up".

Her dad is saying dreadful things to her when no one else is around. When he's been supervised he's been as good as gold.

She's spoken a little to SS, but all she's said is "I don't want to see him" & that's it. She's told them he's a liar but won't elaborate to them.

She wrote a letter tot eh court to say she doesn't want to see him but obviously people think I got her to write it, which I didn't at all, she just gave it to me one day when she knew we had a hearing.

I've recorded conversations she's had with me about it, though this is very much frowned upon by everyone involved, though obviously she doesn't know I'm recording anything.

At school though, apart from a very few occasional tears & quiet moments she's not shown any signs at all.

The police are USELESS. They came out when I had a footprint on my stomach, my face all bruised & cut, a badly bruised & swollen hand & arm, scratches & scrapes all up my back, bum & legs from being dragged along the road, arrested him, kept him overnight & released him the next morning without charge through 'lack of evidence'!!! I tried to press charges for the rapes but again he was arrested & released without charge, lack of evidence, and said because I'd still been in communication with him due to divorce, house & contact issues that it destroyed the case.

It's like the guy is untouchable!

Will look into the WA for further counselling services, wasnt aware they offered that. I've asked SS but they say I'd need to contact the GP, HV or private.

this is horrendous:(

what will happen if you stop contact? Will ex more likely come to attack you or take you the legal way via court to see dd?

Jay can re post this in 'relationships' but different heading something like 'ex pulling school into ways to destroy dd and me' etc

there are some amazing MNs who have been through this type of situation that will give excellent advice

If I stop contact I'm in breach of a court order. I have to fight it & try to get the courts to agree to a no contact order. But it's being made increasingly difficult with the school's involvement clouding the issues, taking sides & wanting to be involved in the decision making process, as well as their constant demands to SS that DD should be back on the plan & that I should be further investigated & I've not been able to find anything yet which says they are not allowed to, that I can use to stop them.

Got the meeting tomorrow morning & I know what'll happen. She's a bolshy madam, the head, and it will end up being some slanging match or clash of the titans battle & won't help anything. If I can go in with "well actually according to section blah blah of the somethingorother act of 1987 you can not do this so back the hell off my @rse & leave us alone or I will get this order & take it to that person & yadda yadda yadda." then at least I know I can do something about it. I'm going in blind & she knows it.

If I breach the order I can be punished, even so much as prison, as unlikely as that is, but it won't look good on me.

He could attack me but I think more likely is he'll continue to lie to various parties & to hurt me through DD, through finances, in the divorce, skating on the edge of breaching orders I have against him but never really breaching them enough for anyone to bother taking it seriously & doing something about it... I can't leave the house without getting abuse from the neighbours along the lines of "We know what you do to that little girl, your ex told us, and what you did to him, you're not welcome here, move!" but then ex won't sell the house or progress the divorce & would try to stop me moving out of the area & switching schools anyway. I can't win.

But if I can convince the courts of what he's doing I might have a chance of getting him away from us. But that's a million times harder with the school being on his side & demanding their involvement in court.

The school seems to be taking sides which isn't very professional but there is nothing to prevent them expressing their opinion to SS.
It is perfectly normal for schools to be asked to contribute in these situations I'm afraid. As a designated Child Protection officer in school I often attend CP conferences and Core group meetings as part of the team of professionals who work with a child.
I would try to remain calm and not to lose my temper with the head as that will only fuel her opinion of you.
sorry can't be more positive.

I have no experience of any sort, so feel free to ignore me entirely, but looking at this objectively it seems to me that the best approach tomorrow would be the "I understand where you are coming from...." one, if you can stomach it - be all sweetness and light about the school doing what they think is right to protect DD, and go for "Look. Everything I have told you is backed up by court decisions, non-mol orders, residence orders, etc, etc. I understand that you can't just take my word for it - so what do you need - and from whom - to be satisfied that there is no cause for concern, apart from Ex himself?" - and if there is someone, anyone who could come with you to take notes, be a witness, recap and repeat what is agreed, that could really help ensure that the head takes the meeting seriously.

Could you ask SS to get involved again and talk to the school directly? It seems to me that by ignoring them SS are playing into Ex's hands, which is less than helpful (to say the least).

mrz - they have been involved with SS throughout their investigation & were present at CP conferences, but when SS decided there was no cause for concern & no need for further involvement they were not happy & have been writing & writing & writing & now to the solicitor & the judge... At what point do they have to accept that there is no concern so just drop it? At what point (& to whom) can I say "you have overstepped the mark, are being unprofessional & making matters worse by creating issues where there are none, YOU are the one damaging my child with your Chicken Little overzealous interferrance, b*gger off!" - Are there any official guidelines on that? SS are backing me up with my opinion & statements that they have no concerns, I've got yet another meeting Tuesday with the junior head & SS so will reinforce that there, but Monday is just me & the senior head, as far as I am aware.

stealthsquiggle - good point on what to say, asking them what will satisfy them, I'll remember that. Thank you.