Deep breath - This may turn into a rant

[ButWhyIsTheGinGone]

Hello Everyone,
I teach year 5 and have a great (interesting!) class and a TA who is really dedicated. It is common practice in our school for the TA to jot notes on the work of the children they've been working with every lesson before I mark it.

I am getting really frustrated at seeing comments such as "where is your full stops?" "What about puntuation?" or "Was you here for the first part of the lesson?" She also corrects spellings that were previously correct! If I ask where a child's gone she replies, "she's gone for a toilet." I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW these aren't crimes of the century but I firmly believe we are there to model good spoken and written English.

Firstly, I hate having to subtly correct the TA's written comments/corrections, and secondly I'm annoyed this happens. All the TA's are being asked to produce their GCSE certificates at the moment (not sure why, possibly to prove they have achieved a C in Maths and Lit.) They are up in arms about it, and I suspect a few of them don't have these qualifications.

My question is really to wonder why, with TA work being pretty desirable, we don't pick more selectively. I take part in the interview process of many new staff in school, but obviously don't have the final say. Our last TA post went to a parent who had hand written their application on lined note paper ripped from a spiral note pad - I'm not joking!

Not meaning to sound snobbish - we have some brilliant TA's at our school, but IMO spelling/grammar mistakes are just not good enough. (Yes I've probs made a few here!)

Tricky one!
Would asking her to note comments/corrections on post it notes help? Then you can put them in the book correctly.
The speech - well you might have to grit your teeth for that.

I agree. I'm a parent governor and tend to be rather annoying by mentioning it if things are incorrectly spelt or grammatically incorrect. DD came home the other day having achieved 39/40 in her spelling test - the odd 1 was actually correct but the TA had marked it incorrect. DD was a little miffed as she missed out on a merit cert, so I re-marked the word and put a little note at the bottom.

Oh and the "a toilet" thing really irritates me. "They have gone to THE toilet", "they are taking a toilet break", there are so many other ways to phrase it correctly.

I think you have to mention it and possibly make it one of her kpi's. But, fwiw I completely agree that normal performance should include correct spelling, punctuation and grammar be it spoken or written.

Thanks - post-its is a very good idea!
Speech - you're probably right, but it's embarrassing as I contradict the children's grammar. (Not in a snotty way, but because it does their writing no favours to have grammatical errors such as, "we been to" and "I done," etc.)

Squishy It's an awkward conversation to have with someone 30 years your senior, but you're right...

I'd tell the head you don't want your TA making the kids work because she can't spell

Sounds as if the recruitment process is somewhat lacking in rigour. Who decides on TA appointments?

I think post it notes are a good idea. I would be really upset if I had to deal with this on a daily basis.

I think you have to address it with her directly though, this is a nightmare

I'm a parent - I'm really shocked at this. If the TA is not able to do this task correctly and is introducing errors, then could she be moved to do other work? The post-its sound a good solution but I would think she should be moved to a younger class to help with things that don't need as much literacy eg reception or nursery. Are there courses she can go on to support the ta in her learning? The tas in my dd school move between the classes so perhaps she could swap with other tas for certain tasks.

We had a LSA employed by the county to support a child 1-1 who was the same how she ever qualified no one knew

I think the post-its are an excellent starting point.

You could talk to the head teacher about the TA job description/person spec - presumably it now includes GCSE English above a certain level as a requirement? It could also include 'top quality spelling, grammar and punctuation' as a requirement for TAs who are likely to mark work. The interviewees could then be asked to do a bit of sample marking as part of the recruitment process.

If these TAs have been recruited for other skills, perhaps it's time the work was rejigged to allow them to use those skills. I work as a TA and I am very rarely required to mark work. I agree, though, that TA work is a hot property and you can afford to be picky, tbh.

Can she be sent on a course? Can she/they have some inset in some of their line management meeting time? Can it be made part of her perf man? I'm a supply teacher and work with loads of Tas, they are definitely not all like this, it would make me visibly wince every time!

Thanks for these responses. It's good to know people don't think I'm being snotty or unreasonable, and that it's not "normal" for this to be the case. The Head has overall say over employment (I am present for interview process as I'm safeguarding-trained.)
The issue is pretty wide-spread aver the school. Many of the TA's have been there ten years or so and got a bit "comfortable" I think. Most are dedicated, helpful and caring, but a couple quite simply shouldn't be worknig with children. We have one who niggles and picks at a particularly vulnerable girl until she explodes, then goes on to everyone about how this girl whouldn't be in mainstream education, etc, etc. She was also responsible for her class teacher getting "satisfactory" in recent OFSTED inspection instead of "good," asd she wasn't following lesson plan, and when a girl in her group made a mistake she banged on her book really hard with her finger to hurry her up. The Head is aware of this, but nothing seems to get done!

The TA in may class is not a bully like the one I've just mentioned, but I think you're right about it being an issue for the Head. With regards to training, etc - how on earth do you approach a 60 year old woman about her grammar and spelling??

This must seem like a bit of an anti-TA rant, but it's not. A good TA is invaluable!

I can see where you are going with this. Am also a teacher and have seen examples of this myself. I think it really comes down to controlling tightly what the TA is responsible for and making sure that she does not write corrections or mark children's work. Having said all that we have a TA who often makes grammatical errors etc but is fantastic with children and very knowledgeable about how to motivate and work with her 1:1 child, who has complex needs and many teachers struggle at times with her. I think blanket policies about spelling, grammar and GCSE certificates could screen out some truly fab TA's. I think as a teacher you have to suss out your TA's strengths and weaknesses and ensure you plan around them.

My daughter's reception teacher says "I done xyz"

The problem is that with this kind of speech (the grammar issues rather than the sloppiness in spelling) it's difficult to correct because to some people who speak like this it just doesn't clang as wrong because that's how everyone around them spoke at home. This is an issue I am having someone at work as well (I'm not a teacher though - this is someone who sends out communications for the firm) and I know she just can't hear the wrongness because she lives in a world where "you was" is the norm.

I don't think you should feel bad about raising it. It's not snobby - it's just completely incorrect and of no help to the children.

I would be utterly utterly appalled to have my child exposed to someone who spoke in such an uneducated manner in any context, and particularly in a school. Horrified.
And the spelling is a fundamental issue in the context of the work she has to do.
Does you head know? Surely she is, however, jolly or keen, simply not up to the work?
Sorry - this may not be wholly helpful.

That would annoy me too OP. Don't suppose you could subtly plan a lesson covering when to use 'is/are/were/was' and slip the word 'punctuation' into next weeks spellings? While involving Mrs X in the lesson?
"Mrs X is going to write punCtuation on the whiteboard children - has she got it right?" "Ooops - Mrs X - you missed the C out"
"Now class, I'm going to ask Mrs X 'Were you at the shops yesterday?' Or 'Was you at the shops yesterday?' - which one is right?"
Hopefully she'd get the hint......

I think you have to talk to your TA and to the Head. As a Mum of one year 5 and two year 2 children I would be shocked if they were hearing such poor English in a classroom setting. You owe it to the children in your class to address this problem. At the very least you should make sure that this TA is not making written notes that the children can see.
One small point though, TAs (plural) does not need an apostrophe!

Focus her - give her say, five things to comment on, eg. Punctuation, Spelling, Adjectives, Re-read and check, Handwriting. Make a code for each one so she only has to write a letter that is agreed by the children and both of you... a smiley face with no smile with curly hair and a big letter P for next to it for punctuation, the child fills in the smile when they've done it. No bad spelling, some fun self assessment, quick and easy TA 'marking.' And don't let her do anything else unless you specifically ask her to. If she's like any TA I have had she'll be glad of the direction.

yousank - Blueeeeeuuurgh!!! (Mature response to having a punctuation error pointed out!)

margoandjerry - this is it. Are grammar lessons and copious time teaching/correcting grammar of any use when the incorrect forms are "normal?" I still think, though, that if everyone in school spoke correctly it would have an influence.

joanofarchitrave - Yes we CAN be picky - so why aren't we? Honestly, it has really got worse in the time I've been at current school. To the extent TAs will use mobiles while on duty in playground, or go out for lunch and be back ten minutes late for pm lessons (I know ten mins not disastrous, but that'd not the point.) Thing that gets me is the Head is AWARE of these things but nothing happens. I think I'm frustrated with him more than anything.

It sounds as if the TA in question needs some training on your marking policy

Good marking should give the child positive praise for what they have done and a target for next time

This might be a neutral starting point to model some effective marking comments

It makes me cross when unqualified inexperienced people get TA jobs 'just because'

...but it does when you are talking about ownership. Gah. Bad punctuation and speech make me twitch. I have a friend who says "We done ..." etc. But I let her off.

About half of the TA's in my school say 'I done'

The Head is gently trying to retrain them with grammar/spelling lessons in the staff room but its not working

Whereas it seems ok to give people work-related targets, eg improving ICT or the like, asking someone to improve their grammar/spelling/punctuation, seems so much more....personal. Any suggestions in our school however subtle, would not go down well in our school however reasonable a request it may be..

If your TA has been speaking this way for the last 59 years, I doubt if she will change now. You can also correct some of her spelling but she will still mis-spell other words. I think it is more of a recuitment issue. I agree with an earlier poster that a TA's post should be sufficiently desirable that you should be able to get someone who uses standard grammar and can spell. I feel it might be best to have a word with the head, and follow others' advice regarding damage limitation.

My dd's year five teacher says 'you done' and 'you was' dd has copied it on occasion and of course says well Mr Teacher says it when I correct her. This teacher is also the English specialist in the school. I was alarmed when I first heard it, but I'm told that the children love him and he gets great results.